Episode 34
On this Episode of Fulfillment Equation
This week, I’m talking to talented musician and published poet, Lauren Best. As an experienced vocal coach, Lauren talks about the power of voice and how singing is a gateway to many of the fulfillment foundations – things like relaxation, movement, connection to others, connection to our bodies, intuition, etc. Whether you’re wanting to sing or build some other skill, Lauren has some great insights and advice that applies to all of us.
We take a deep dive to discover that attitude is a product of mindset and energy (attitude = mindset x energy) and that preparation is a combination of managing your expectations and doing the work (preparation = expectations + effort). We also discuss the importance of “3 P’s”: preparation, presence and purpose.
One of my favourite parts of the conversation was building Lauren’s equation together:
14k + 7h + 7fd + 7e + 7fi + 7n + 4le +20w
We can drag ourselves down before we’ve had a chance to blast off
– Lauren Best
About the Guest
As an experienced musician and a published poet, Lauren Best knows a lot about finding her voice and has worked to help others find their voices as well. Lauren’s music has been heard coast to coast since her debut album release in 2011, and she’s collaborated across genres and art forms with work in music, poetry, theatre, film and digital media. She was Owen Sound’s Poet Laureate from 2017-2019 and her latest book of poems is called “Just Leaves”. Lauren has a podcast called “Lauren’s Best” in which she focuses on reclaiming your creativity, reawakening your voice and connecting with courage. She is also a mother and an avid nature lover.
Transcript
00:00
Erin
I’m Erin Mayo and welcome to the Fulfillment Equation, the podcast where we explore how to spark and foster more fulfillment in your own life through a focus on freedom, purpose, and experiences. What’s your unique equation? Often on our journey to discover and nurture our sense of fulfillment, we first have to discover ourselves. Who am I? What do I value? What brings me joy? Sometimes this involves reflecting on and defining our own stories, and sometimes it involves finding our own voice. This brings me to my wonderful guest today, Lauren Best. As an experienced musician and a published poet, Lauren knows a lot about finding her voice and has worked to help others find their voices as well. A little bit about Lauren.
00:56
Erin
Her music has been heard coast to coast since her debut album release in 2011, and she’s collaborated across genres and art forms with work in music, poetry, theater, film, and digital media. She was Owen Sound’s poet laureate from 2017 to 2019, and her latest book of poems is called Just Leaves. Lauren has a podcast called Lauren’s Best in which she focuses on reclaiming your creativity, reawakening your voice, and connecting with courage. She is also a mother and a nature lover. I can’t wait to dig into all of this and more as we better understand creativity and the power of voice. Welcome, Lauren.
01:39
Lauren
Thank you. I’m so happy to be here talking to you.
01:43
Erin
This is great. I can’t wait to get into this. I thought maybe we could start with some of your experience as a voice coach. You had told me once that you had seen people transform and reawaken, and I was just curious about that. Can you tell me more about that?
02:02
Lauren
Well, I think with the voice, and particularly when we think about voice coaching, often people, their first thought is singing.
02:09
Erin
Yes.
02:10
Lauren
And that can bring up a lot for people because often when we think of singing, then we think of performance. And there’s so much in between that. Right? I mean, there’s so much in between our voices, making some sounds and singing and all the different ways we can sing, but. And all the different ways we can make sounds. Right. All the different ways we use our voices, but there are so many benefits to using our voice that have nothing to do with performance. However, I find when people would hear about voice coaching or when they would, you know, they’re coming to a workshop or they’ve signed up for lessons, they’re expecting to be told how to sing in order to perform to get really specific results. And I, I think this often has to do with how things went in their education experiences.
03:04
Lauren
But sometimes people have had experiences where at really young ages, they were asked to sing very specific things in very specific ways in a school choir or something like that. And sometimes the adults weren’t the most encouraging or understanding if they were just being silly, let’s say, because they’re kids. Right. Or if their voices were unique in a certain way, or if they were just singing too loud, again, because they’re kids, I mean, like too loud for the group. So often people have this preconception of, oh, I’m going to be told what’s right and wrong when it comes to singing.
03:38
Erin
Right, Right.
03:39
Lauren
I’m going to be told how to get things to improve. Kind of, you know, like, you learn a dance, you want it to look right. You know, you learn a song, you want it to sound right. So a lot of people are very concerned with getting it to be right and not sounding bad, you know. But I find with our voices, I mean, we can talk about that side of things too. You know, how to sound good. We want to sound good. That’s fine, right? How to. How to capture people in a performance through emotions, through a beautiful sound, through an entertaining performance. Like, there’s lots there to explore. And I’ve spent lots of time coaching people for those performance objectives. But just the act of singing and of sound making itself has inherent value to us before we ever start performing.
04:30
Lauren
And in order to get to those performance objectives, if we have them, or whatever our objectives are, sometimes it’s building skill, sometimes it’s feeling good and having fun. Sometimes it’s wellness goals. Singing can be very useful for relaxation, for balancing the nervous system. So for both taking us down if we’re too amped up, but also invigorating or rejuvenating, helping feel more awakened if we’re. If our nervous system is kind of clamped down, not activated enough. It’s also useful for improving our mental health. Around pain management, around. Just there.
05:12
Lauren
There’s lots there and there’s. There’s a lot of research and a huge body of work. So when I talk about kind of. You mentioned, I think you said reawakening or awakening.
05:22
Erin
Yeah, yeah.
05:23
Lauren
Sometimes it’s about thinking, oh, I was thinking about getting the right notes. And I relate to this. I was thinking about not being criticized for sounding bad, but how can I feel good and sound good to myself? And what can I explore outside of that? Because just the right notes. If we imagine, like just the right steps in a dance. Right. Like someone could technically step all the right places in a dance and technically move their arms in the right way, but you don’t. They, they don’t look like they’re having fun. You don’t feel like they’re really doing the dance. They’re stepping in the right places, but you can tell they’re not really doing it. They’re not really in it. Right. And you.
06:08
Lauren
We also know if we like use dancing as something to compare and relate to, that we can have tons of fun dancing without ever pre programming our steps and doing a performance. Right. We can get so much out of movement practices, whether that’s dance or whether that’s other movement without it ever being performed. And I believe that singing and using our voices is the same way. We’ve often been taught that, you know, we’ll learn to sing. And people have sometimes had experiences where they’re. They’ve had a singing teacher say this is the song I’ve picked out for you and then this is how you’re going to sing it. And it’s very specific. But there’s so much to explore in addition to that.
06:49
Erin
Yeah, I love how you’ve made that link there between singing and dancing and just in wellness because you’re right. And I’ll have to dig into this a little bit more in the research, but there must be some solid evidence there that these activities help us calm, help us feel good. And the other thing that I’m picking up on is just like what an interesting point you’re making around the fact that people come into these voice lessons with having been programmed to really feel like they have to kind of stay in a lane, that there’s like a right and wrong way to do things. And I feel like I’ve heard that in a lot ways, like not just for singing.
07:43
Erin
How often are many of us feeling so concerned with getting things right that it almost prevents us from even trying in the first place?
07:55
Lauren
And there isn’t always one clear right answer. I think over the last year that’s been something that I’ve been sort of meditating on or working on or untangling in a lot of different aspects of my life. Right. Because, you know, I want to be, I want to make smart choices and I want to do the sort of optimized thing, right. Like if there are an array of choices, which one is the right choice? How do I make the choice that is going to lead to the things I want is what that really means. But often there are multiple. Well, first of all, there’s multiple paths to the same outcome. But also, there are just multiple paths in. And that there’s not always one clear, correct, optimal way to go about it. And specifically with singing or with movement practices in general.
08:48
Lauren
Because I definitely consider singing to be a movement practice. Our bodies are a whole. And I mean singing, even though we can think of it as being these small mechanisms to create sound, that’s not the way it is at all. It’s so many different parts of our body. You know, our body is all interlinked. Our voice is not separate from everything else. It is not disembodied in any way. And our bodies have biotensegrity. I first heard this from a voice coach called Jeremy Ryan Mossman. And he talks about our bodies being more like a gummy worm. You know, like we’re all. We’re connected throughout our entire being. But then furthermore, our minds and our subconscious and our emotions and our intentions also play into all that. So it’s also about, you know, like, what do we even want?
09:36
Lauren
Like, there are a lot of possible, not just paths, but a lot of possible outcomes. Right? So it’s. Do we want to relax? Do we want to, you know, bring up our energy? Sometimes I use singing to feel a sense of release of energy. Like, and singing is like. It is exercise. It’s. It’s kind of wild to think, but it’s so involved in our bodies that it can actually count towards some of our exercise requirements to be really singing. But there’s so much we can gain from it, just. Just feeling more connected to ourselves and to our bodies, which might sound simple, but I mean, we do all kinds of things to be more connected to ourselves and our bodies. It’s so important, but also to be more connected to other people.
10:22
Lauren
Singing and moving with other people makes us feel more connected to them, makes us actually feel more cooperative with them. It provides really important social connection and social bonding, which is just essential for living. But I think we all, at least, or I’ll speak for myself, I can sometimes struggle to figure out how to get social connection in ways that feel good to me, that feel authentic to me, that. That fit with what I want to be doing.
10:51
Erin
Yeah, I feel like we’re going touch on almost all of the fulfillment equation foundations in this conversation because I heard you getting really close to intuition. So, you know, kind of stepping outside of the need to have clear rules around how to do something right. And actually, you know, moving into that space of intuition with your creativity. And the other one you just touched on was that social connectivity, that connection that community feeling. So it’s amazing that we can take something like singing and draw a line to many of these foundations.
11:34
Lauren
Yeah, totally. I mean, I think intuition is such an important thing to talk about when it comes to the voice and singing. Because our unconscious has so much to do with our daily life and with what we do and how we feel. And so we want to be aware of that when we’re trying to work with our body and work with the sounds we’re producing. But also we’re working with the body in pretty complex ways. And in the past and to some extent in the present, singing teachers or people in general often favor these like, simplistic kind of mechanical either approaches or at least explanations for how the body works.
12:12
Lauren
You know, there’s a whole term of biomechanics, as if our bodies were robots that we could, you know, chart and chart a perfect, like schematic diagram and then everything would just like work tickety boo all the time in the exact same way as like a machine. Right. And our bodies are really not machines, we’re really not computers, and we’re really not mechanical where it’s much more complex than that. And I mean, the acts of expression, acts of creativity, even acts of communication, it’s complex. And if we try to only use our conscious processing without using our intuition and unconscious, my experience has been that it takes longer and it’s harder to get to the outcomes we want to get to. And I mean, it’s also just impossible. There are so many muscles involved with our breathing. Not just muscles, but like there’s connective tissue.
13:11
Lauren
There’s. There’s a lot happening just to breathe. And we can’t actually consciously control that. We cannot consciously control all the individual parts of our breathing as if. As if were manipulating a machine. What we can do is make all kinds of adjustments that can, and I won’t even say specific to breathing. Now let’s think about singing. Right? We can make adjustments or use strategies that create different outcomes in the sound or in the feeling and get us closer to where we want. But we really need to use our intuition because its A going to be more effective. And also what our teacher or our guide or the book we’re reading, whatever it is that we’re taking cues from, that person is not necessarily going to have the same experiences of sound or of how their body feels as we do.
14:07
Lauren
And this is really common that you’ll have a group of people, you all get them to sing the same song or sing the same notes, and maybe they’re approaching a high note or a particularly vigorous sound or whatever the case may be something that we’re thinking, what does it… what does that feel like? Or where do you feel it in your body? And you can get totally different responses from people. Some people will say, I feel that in my face. Or I’ll sometimes say things like, I feel like it’s in front of my head. Or some people will say, I feel like there’s space out of the back of my neck. Or some people might say it feels like a thick color. You know, like, people have very different ways of identifying the same thing or the same.
14:57
Lauren
What we would call the same note or the same type of sound or the same texture. And there are some commonalities, but again, they don’t always make sense for different people with different minds and different bodies. And so it’s important that we check in with ourselves and use our intuition to develop strategies that work for us around how we think about it. And also things like how we’re moving our body, how we’re not moving our body, and perhaps different intuitive strategies on the way. Even though it may not be the destination that you use your body in a particular way while you do things. You know, but sometimes something like singing upside down or, you know, singing against a wall, or walking around while you’re singing, or holding your arms up over your head, there’s.
15:44
Lauren
There are all these different strategies either on the way or for the actual moment you’re going for. And I think intuition plays such a big role in discovering those strategies. Rather than having a list of things to try out, like, let’s see what we feel and how our intuition can lead us.
16:06
Erin
Yeah. And then the experience is different for each and every person. Do you have an actual example of someone who you were helping to coach where, you know, they experienced a transforming or a reawakening? What did that look like at the beginning? And what did that look like, you know, kind of through the journey and. And around the end.
16:28
Lauren
Just one is so hard because, again, the journeys can be so different. I used to teach piano lessons, and I give the example. You know, sometimes I start with teaching someone piano lessons, and we end up. It ends up being a lot more embodied than that and thinking about their body and how they approach learning, how they approach creativity, how they approach time for themselves. And then we end up thinking about or and talking about them writing a book and their other goals and, you know, these other. These other aspects of their life that involve. Involve similar things. But I do think of a student who came to me, a client, not really even fully believing in their singing at first. And I would say this is fairly common.
17:20
Lauren
There are people who come who know they love to sing, who know they want to sing, who. Like, they’re already in it. But there’s people who come. Who. Who come to me who aren’t 100%. They should even keep taking singing lessons. Like, they’re. They’ll say things like, can you help me? They almost have a sense of inferiority or they aren’t sure if. If it’s something that they’re capable of pursuing.
17:46
Erin
Like a lack of confidence.
17:48
Lauren
Sure. We could call that a lack of confidence, but a lot it’s. I think many people have a lack of confidence, even those who seem really confident. That’s also something I’ve learned is people who have never learned to sing and really do need a lot of help. Often people who can already sing doubt themselves almost as much that the actual objective skill level does not necessarily translate to the level.
18:12
Erin
I feel like American Idol taught us that too.
18:15
Lauren
Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. So I was gonna say the student who wasn’t even really sure about believing in their voice or believing in themselves. Yes. And they ended up auditioning for local theater with a song and performing on stage. So going from like, not really even being sure about voice lessons at all to literally singing on stage. And it’s really. It’s really amazing to see this amazing transformation of. Of believing in themselves and having some feedback and some encouragement to kind of help them along this path.
18:54
Erin
Right. So in terms of building a sense of belief in oneself, then, I mean, I’ve heard you talk in that about support and encouragement being an ingredient. What else do you think is involved in kind of moving from a state where you’re not believing in yourself to a state where you’re feeling more confident, you’re feeling more capable.
19:18
Lauren
Okay. I have two answers that may seem contradictory.
19:22
Erin
Okay. Oh, I. I love that when that happens.
19:25
Lauren
Okay. I think the more important of the two answers is that I think we can prep ourselves to some extent to have an over. An oversimplification would be to say to have a better attitude going in.
19:41
Erin
Okay.
19:42
Lauren
But I think that. I think we. I could say attitude, but I think it can be our. Our brain state as well. And I think we can do so much to get ourselves to a different brain state.
19:54
Erin
Mindset.
19:55
Lauren
Yeah.
19:55
Erin
Is that what we’re talking about?
19:56
Lauren
We could call it mindset. We could call it mindset. I think sometimes. Okay, so as an example for myself, this morning I got the kids off to school. I was feeling pretty good. I was looking forward to this, but I was feeling kind of itchy in my body, you know, and not skin itchy, like almost anxious discomfort. Like I just didn’t feel great to be going into this. I wasn’t sure why. And I did do a little bit of thinking about it and I had the pleasure of talking to my fiance a bit. But what was more important is I went for a walk. I went for a really, what I think is a really good walk. I go up a big hill. So I get my heart rate up a bit.
20:42
Lauren
I’m around the trees, I come back down the hill in another spot and can see in the very far distance over the bay, the sort of colors of trees changing across the water as they get further in the distance. And every time I see that, I think I feel this gratitude, thinking, wow, you know, what a place I live that this is what I see just going on a little walk. So it isn’t even just in that case for that story for myself. It’s not even just the exercise, but it’s also about what I’m thinking about and what I’m seeing and so on and so forth.
21:19
Lauren
And so that really helped get me into a place where I could, without even really needing to engineer it through mindset, where I’m just feeling more of a sense of well being and that translates to the confidence and self belief and start kind of leading with the body. However, when I don’t have time for something like that, if I’m in a not great headspace about something, I realize I don’t have to walk into something feeling bad and anxious and negative about it. I can take some time to clear my head and we could call that, we could say meditate, right? Think of why I’m doing something, like some purpose behind it, right? Think about whether, think about what’s making me feel bad. Like am I feeling bad because I’m assuming something negative will happen because I’m worried about something.
22:06
Lauren
Sometimes if the thing I’m worrying about is actually the thing I want most to improve anyways, right? Or maybe I’m anticipating the challenge and I just need to remember, oh, like that challenge is why I’m here, you know, it is going to be painful, but I want in a sense, right? But like I want that pain and that friction because the other side of that is the pleasure, fulfillment or you know, the whatever it is, right? I mean, we do partially climb the mountain for the climb. That is a big part of it. But there, you know, you’re. It’s not the same experience at the top as it is at the bottom either. Right. And sometimes we don’t even choose a mountain. We just choose some nice rolling hills and do some other things. So it is mindset, but I think it’s. It’s.
22:52
Lauren
Sometimes that can be as simple as a grounding or centering, or someone might say shaking it off or bringing ourselves to a different place with it because it’s so easy to get caught up for whatever reason, whether it’s old patterns, whether it’s the people around us, whether it’s not sleeping well, like, there’s lots of things that can kind of eat away at how we feel. And then that we can think that means we’re not feeling confident when really we’re just feeling shitty for some other reason. And as a performer, I’ve really learned that how I feel on stage is not equivalent to how people are perceiving it.
23:32
Lauren
I can feel really bad most of the time I’m on stage, and people will think it’s great, you know, or I can feel like because once I start feeling that way, I can think, oh, people aren’t as engaged. Like, maybe they don’t like it, like, and just that all that does not really serve what I’m doing. Right. And so I’ve learned that I can also put myself on stage in a better place and enjoy it more. And I think that does translate to better outcomes as well. So that’s part of it, I think. Right. Is like an intentionality around how we want to feel. And especially with people can think or with like confidence, anything we’re doing that challenges our self confidence, where we’re the center of attention, we have to be careful because those things can naturally just be stressful.
24:21
Lauren
They’re just stressful to our bodies. You know, I expect that when I get up on a stage, my heart might race, I might get, you know, feel really sweaty. Sometimes are better than others. But like, I expect for there to be that physical stress. And even if I’ve put myself in, you know, done that kind of mental preparation, right? So like, so both putting ourselves in a place where we feel like we have the energy we want going in, and I know I talked about that, both physically and mentally, but also expecting to ride the waves a little bit and not expecting it to be easy and feel good the whole time, necessarily being prepared to go through that so that was just one of the things.
25:09
Erin
Okay, so let’s pause for one moment there.
25:12
Lauren
Yeah.
25:12
Erin
Because, I mean, firstly, I think this applies to anyone, whether they’re getting up on stage to perform or just showing up in your regular life. Like, you can have your own experience going on inside, and that may or may not be what others are interpreting, and probably not most of the time. And so you might as well go into it feeling good on the inside too. I mean, it’s funny because I feel like I almost need a check board behind me of the Fulfillment Equation foundations. Because you just touched on nature and solitude, health, you know, embracing feelings. You’re hitting them all. When you looked through that list of Fulfillment Equation foundations, which one popped out to you first? Like, what was your first immediate thought?
25:59
Lauren
Maybe brain rewiring? It’s hard to say because they all fit together, but I think I’ve had to do a lot of brain rewiring. Personally, I was really getting into sort of, I guess if you think of a rut in the brain wiring, right. I was getting into sort of a sticky or negative habit in my mind around things. And that’s sometimes internal. I think that’s sometimes somewhat societal, especially for women. You know, I’m actually thinking specifically around parenting. There have been times where I can feel like parenting is in the way of all the other things I’m supposed to be doing, right? Like being an entrepreneur.
26:42
Lauren
Like, oh, I just have to deal with parenting so that I can have more success as an entrepreneur, so that I can get these projects done, or even so that I can, like, cook and clean for my kids. Like, I want to do things for my kids, so I need to deal with my kids so I can do all these things for them. Right? And I think that can partially come from the outside, from society, from social media, from family. And not that it has to kind of end up that way in my mind, but I had to really think, oh, if I have that, like, you’re asking me to do another thing. Like, oh, I, I, I’m gonna get to you. I love you. But, like, you know that.
27:27
Lauren
But if that starts to add up all the time, I realized that I wasn’t in enjoying myself as a parent and that I actually wanted to do these loving things for my kids. That having the opportunity to spend time with my kids and to be again caring for them and showing love and care. Like that I’ve built a lot of my life so I could do that. And like, that is a goal that is a sense of fulfillment, but this kind of resistance to it, or I wouldn’t even use the word resentment, but sometimes it was, you know, not. I wouldn’t say deep seated resentment or anger, but like this. That. That feeling was actually irritation.
28:11
Erin
Almost irritation. Yeah, yeah.
28:14
Lauren
And as parents, like, we all go through that sometimes. Like, of course that happens sometimes. And of course kids are like annoying and loud sometimes and you have to say, wait, back off. But that. That was really blocking me from actually enjoying the love and care that in the way I wanted to. And so even though it was doing the same things, that rewiring my brain was really unlocking a different experience of that same thing.
28:43
Erin
Yeah. What kind of rewiring of your brain if you had to do around being in the arts, like, what kind of. Kind of preconceived notions come with that and how have you had to overcome those?
28:58
Lauren
So this actually segues perfectly into what I was going to say earlier.
29:03
Erin
Oh, yes.
29:04
Lauren
Building self confidence.
29:05
Erin
Okay.
29:05
Lauren
Totally related.
29:06
Erin
We’re coming back. So this is number two.
29:09
Lauren
Yeah, well. And even those two are interrelated. You tell me. Maybe you think they’re. They’re the same thing said differently.
29:14
Erin
Okay, okay.
29:16
Lauren
I was going to start with a maybe controversial statement of talent is a myth. And I’ll set that aside whether you believe that or not, because people do have, like, our bodies sometimes have. Or. And our minds, you know, have natural, like, gifts, so to speak. Or like, we are physically, like. Some people are physically able to sing very low notes, and some people are physically able to sing very high notes in ways that are different from one another, obviously.
29:45
Lauren
However, I’ve noticed as a voice coach, and I also noticed this then in myself, is that sometimes people will think they are bad at a song and really, they have never really learned the song and they are expecting to be able to kind of hear it and just naturally sing it without actually learning it or without actually learning singing skills, you know, And I think there’s this idea of having like, a great voice and being a natural at singing and being talented. And especially I think we are. Our culture has a lot of focus on the prodigy. And, you know, now we can watch videos of very young musicians playing very difficult things. And that is amazing and inspiring.
30:39
Lauren
And I kind of love seeing that. Sometimes it’s kind of concerning because of the technique they’re using is not necessarily going to be sustainable for them. What I’ve seen and heard from people is that does not always translate to a lifelong enjoyment of what they’re doing. There’s just, there’s a lot to unpack there. But I think also seeing that kind of thing, we think, oh wow, I saw a three year old be so great on guitar. Like why can’t I be like that? When I try to play guitar it feels so awkward and it hurts my fingers and all these things I’ve been trying for a few years. Also what we consider trying and learning, like when it comes to music is not always really learning or really like trying in the sense of like training. Right.
31:28
Lauren
Like what you would expect me to do to be able to again like perform other complex physical practices. And so I’ve noticed this all like across the age ranges, I’ve noticed this in seniors, I’ve noticed this in very young children is that we can sometimes become frustrated with ourselves through an expectation that we will better than we expect right at the beginning or that we should again air quotes like that we think we should in some way be further along or that should go faster. And sometimes that’s just because we don’t understand what the in between steps are. Right?
32:11
Erin
Right.
32:12
Lauren
Like this has been in music and the arts, but I’m thinking actually of swimming. So I’ve been taking swimming lessons on and off for a few years. I took swimming lessons as a kid. Like I got my, some of my life saving levels and I thought I knew how to swim. But then coming back to it 10, 15 years later, I enjoyed it a lot more coming back to it because there wasn’t the same kind of pressure. But I realized some of what I thought I knew I didn’t really have the techniques in an efficient way or I would just do things like push myself way too hard and wonder why I was all tired and couldn’t do things properly. Right.
32:51
Lauren
Or, or you know, my, the way I doing something was just slightly off or the way I was thinking about how I kick my legs, I realized, oh, I have to feel like my legs are attached differently to kick in the way I need to kick. Like the way I perceived my body and what I was doing needed to change. Right?
33:09
Erin
Right.
33:10
Lauren
And that has been a really slow process. Right. I really needed feedback and I’ve enjoyed it. But I’m, I’ve, I’m proud to say it’s been like a few years of kind of slowly working at it and any little slice of that would have not seemed very impressive. But wow, do I ever see a difference in myself from when I first started getting back into it to now, like, a huge difference. And so that slow and steady work and not expecting results so quickly that we sort of drag ourselves down before we’ve had a chance to blast off. People are often really hard on themselves when they just need a little more time to, like, actually either gain the skills or gain the knowledge or understanding. So people think they’re tone deaf or they’re pitchy or they’re bad a singer.
34:06
Lauren
And when we go through and unpack, like, can we just sing each note of the song and identify, like, where we are? Not in. Not in time. But if you imagine, like, just stepping. Stepping through a dance instead of doing it, called marking it sometimes, they don’t know the notes because they don’t know the song. And so the reason they feel a little pitchy is because they don’t know what the actual note is that they are actually intending on hitting.
34:37
Erin
Interesting. So I want to try to summarize this a little bit. I want to go back to the point where you had said, I’m going to have two answers, and they may or may not be conflicting with one another. Okay. Actually, I think the first thing I’m going to say here is that kudos to professional artists in whatever field they are in, because I think their gift is that they make it look so darn easy. And they. Our expectations are set because whether it’s a singer, a dancer, a writer, whatever, they make it look so easy. And what you don’t see is behind that, the hours and hours and hours of practice that’s gone into that. So there’s definitely. I’m hearing a strong theme there from you around managing our own expectations.
35:31
Erin
But I had wanted to go back to the point where you had said, I’m going to give two answers, and they may or may not be in conflict with one another. So answer number one was around mindset, right?
35:42
Lauren
Yeah. Or around setting ourselves up with the energy or the. The. Yeah. The feeling around it.
35:50
Erin
Right.
35:50
Lauren
That we want to have. But I think mindset can able. The word mind is in it. Right. It’s like, oh, I set my mind, like, I’m gonna be amazing today, and then I’m fine. That’s all I need to do. Right. There’s something around bringing that into our experience, into our body. For example, my walk this morning. Right. So much of what reset me and got me through feeling really where I want to be was not the mindset adjustments, because I did the mindset adjustments, and I still didn’t quite feel where I wanted to feel in terms of that kind of confidence or belief. I think it’s around how we embody that. And that’s not to say you have to go for a walk to get there. You can do a lot of other things. But I think mindset alone can become an intellectual exercise.
36:39
Lauren
That doesn’t always get us to where we. To where we want to be.
36:44
Erin
Yeah, maybe it’s more like mindset and energy.
36:47
Lauren
Yeah, energy, Sometimes attitude. Like, don’t go into things with a negative attitude. And again, that’s sometimes easier said than done, which is again, why the physical part of it can really help. Because I can. I can try to banish my negative attitude, but I still need to do practices that support that and support maintaining that. And some of that’s the brain rewiring, but some of it is, you know, checking myself before I wreck myself. Right. Sometimes it is thinking, like, how am I approaching this?
37:18
Erin
Right. Maybe attitude is mindset and energy combined. It’s some of those things. Okay, so that was number one. Number two, you started with talent is a myth, which is like a lovely disruptor there. I agree with you. But I think ultimately what you were talking about was managing our expectations and doing the work.
37:46
Lauren
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, and figuring out. Figuring out, process. The word intention came to me around, you know, energy plus mindset and attitude, you know, and intention. I think that’s really important because, for example, we can often sing better than we think, much faster than we think, but have being open to that is important. And feeling. I guess I could use the word grounded. That combination of intention, mindset, attitude, you know, helps us get there a lot faster. But ain’t no enjoying myself faster that is going to cause me to be able to sing a song. I do not know. Like I can. I can. Can improvise way more than I thought was possible. So again, this is. That’s why I kind of say process. Because it is doing the work.
38:35
Erin
Yes. Okay. One part attitude, one part preparation.
38:41
Lauren
There we go.
38:42
Erin
Does that distill it down?
38:44
Lauren
Yeah. Preparation and presence, you know.
38:46
Erin
Preparation and presence.
38:48
Lauren
Yeah. Being in it and willing to go through it rather than expecting it to be different, you know, rather than when I’m on that stage giving the talk, thinking, well, I need to prepare until I never get nervous and I never have my heart race and I want to never, ever feel anything bad, you know?
39:11
Erin
Right.
39:11
Lauren
Like being present in that and being willing to be in that and willing for that to pass. And I think purpose too. While we’re picking our peas yeah, let’s go for it. It’s like, what is the purpose of doing what we’re doing? Right. And so that’s another big thing. Right. Is. Is. Well, as I was saying, like, what’s the purpose? Is it I should just improvise because I just want to have fun or I just want to make some big noises or I just want to amuse a child or whatever? Right. Or is the purpose to recall the exact lyrics of a song because I really want to sing that particular song? Or is the purpose to prepare for a performance that is on a large stage where you’re performing for an audience where there’s seeing you from very far away? You know?
39:57
Lauren
Is the purpose to prepare to perform? I know I’m talking and singing specific ways, but I think this translates to all kinds of things.
40:04
Erin
Absolutely.
40:04
Lauren
Is the purpose to be on a mic in the end or to not be on a mic in the end? Because that’s going to change a whole bunch of your choices. And so what you might do for that purpose could be so different than for another purpose. And so, you know, when I’m swimming, I have to remember that the purpose is not to go as fast and as hard as I can to adjust and learn so that when I want to go fast and hard, I am doing it in a way that’s more sustainable.
40:33
Erin
Yes. Presence, preparation, purpose.
40:37
Lauren
I’m gonna have to write those down or something.
40:39
Erin
Right. I think we’re on to something amazing. Let’s build your equation.
40:44
Lauren
Okay.
40:45
Erin
All right. So we’re going to start with just identifying what are the big chunks of things that you like to do in a week that bring you fulfillment?
40:56
Lauren
I have been thinking so much about this, particularly as a mother, and I was thinking. I thought. I don’t know if any of the guests I’ve heard on your show have mentioned cleaning, but I feel like I do so much of it.
41:12
Erin
Right.
41:13
Lauren
But.
41:13
Erin
And I will say I actually have a block for that work. Like, the Fulfillment Equation does not have to be filled with only fulfillment type stuff. In fact, you should also have some of those things in, because if your intention is over time to maybe try to reduce some of that.
41:31
Lauren
Yeah.
41:31
Erin
Then you’re using your equation to kind of tip the scales on the proportions of things.
41:36
Lauren
Yeah. And I’ve realized that it can actually be very fulfilling to do that. Both because I like the outcome and I’m not like a I’m about to clean for two hours kind of person. I’m more like, it’s in. It tends to be in smaller chunks. But I thought to myself, wow, between cleaning up the kitchen and doing the laundry and just tidying up the house and this and that and these little things, cleaning up outside, I’m like, that’s actually a fair amount of time. But I’m also often using that time for thinking about things, you know, because if I’m in. If I’m in calls all the time, or if I’m directly hanging out with my kids, you know, all the time, sometimes I’m cleaning with them around too. Of course, I don’t. It acts as thinking or in Fulfillment Equation terms, as solitude.
42:21
Lauren
It can actually be quite creative time for me in a way.
42:25
Erin
Yes.
42:25
Lauren
I’ll put on a podcast. And so it’s. Sometimes it’s learning time. Sometimes I’ll actually be in a course or something where I’m able to listen to it and I don’t need. Don’t need my eyes as much. And I can. I can do some of that. So although be warned, I have realized that my learning quality is not always as high if I’m too distracted. But depending on what it is, it can be really effective.
42:49
Erin
Isn’t that neat, though, that if you’re in touch with the things that you’re getting joy from, sometimes you can actually combine something you get joy from with something that you have to do.
43:00
Lauren
And I can’t believe I led with cleaning, because I think actually if I had budget, like unlimited budget to start delegating things in bigger chunks, that would probably be one of the things I would hire out. So I think that caretaking, or we could even call it homemaking category, I used to not factor it in. And when I had these kinds of conversations or, you know, when people would say, write down your ideal week or whatever, I wouldn’t even write down kind of a homemaking and child care kind of things that much, because I would. I would think, oh, this is about work. This is about creativity. This is about all my aspirations. And then I would feel very disconnected from what my actual life was and kind of feel like I was like, failing at being the.
43:47
Lauren
The mother or the just person living a life I wanted to be.
43:53
Erin
Yes.
43:53
Lauren
And also feeling like I was. And then, of course, then I would feel like I wasn’t getting to all these things in my supposed. An ideal week. That was coming from just a. Just a professional perspective. So as I was saying, spending time with my children, cooking, I really enjoy cooking as well as I enjoy, like, feeding the people I love. But I also enjoy, you Know, getting the freezer stash of meals built up or. I. I love fermented food and so it’s also very creative for me. I was gonna say I love building in time for that. Exercise and taking care of my body is important to me. And sometimes that coincides with gardening or that coincides with the children. Right. With even just walking to the park and back, spending time with my fiance.
44:42
Lauren
You know, often that is cooking or cleaning or with the kids. But sometimes we are able to exercise together to go for walks or hikes. I love to go canoeing. Do I get to go canoeing that often? No. If I was designing this, ideally it might be like once a week or more. Was it that last year? No. And I’m pregnant right now, so I don’t think it’s going to be that exact.
45:08
Erin
Congrats.
45:09
Lauren
Thank you. Thank you. Because I’m definitely not quite as. I don’t have the same level of like stamina that I would usually for something especially for something like canoeing. Oh. Learning. Which is both professional and personal. Over the last year, I’ve been doing more networking than I used to. So professionally speaking, there’s networking and I find that it is work, but it’s different than work too. There’s a personal fulfillment of sorts that comes from that. But sometimes it feels very much like a learning opportunity as well. Depending on the setting. Yeah. And so it tends to be project based too. I’ve been working over the last over a year now on a poetry project that’s using my great grandmother’s 1933 parenting handbook. So I’ve been doing research for that and poetry creation for that. So. And I’ll be doing production for that.
46:08
Lauren
But there are definitely what I’ll call seasons. Although sometimes the seasons almost seem to be a year, not just a season. I use the word season loosely where I’m doing a lot of client work. Right. I’m seeing a lot of voice clients directly. I’m doing a lot of workshops directly or last year I released a book. So I was doing performing and readings and just work around releasing a book and what that was. So depending on the season and what projects I’m working on and where things are at in my business, it can really vary. And going into a season of having my three third child, yes, I can still be an entrepreneur, I can still be an artist, I can still be working on long term projects. I’m still taking with me what I’ve built in my career so far.
46:54
Lauren
But it may not be the Season of tons of client contact or of big projects or of a big team. And. And I think I’m embracing that more.
47:06
Erin
Yeah. Okay. So we’ve got time with kids. Kids work around the house, food, exercise, time with fiance. I put nature for canoeing.
47:18
Lauren
Well, I think nature connection is important and we should talk about the professional things because I got to get those on.
47:23
Erin
Oh, yeah, no, I got. Okay. I wasn’t done. I had learning, networking. You talked about projects and client work. What if we just created one bucket of work?
47:34
Lauren
Sounds good. That makes sense.
47:37
Erin
I don’t want to over complicate it.
47:38
Lauren
It.
47:39
Erin
Okay, perfect. So we’re going to just do a very rapid fire exercise of attaching some quantities to this because not everything is always in the same proportion. And I think as we go into this exercise, it really is worth noting exactly what you were saying earlier around. You know, we’re going to build an equation for a point in time, but we don’t have to be doing everything in one point of time. There may be seasons where you’re focused more on your artistic endeavors, seasons where you’re focused more on entrepreneurial pieces. And then, you know, obviously you’re headed into a pretty family centric season, which is very exciting. But we’ll just, we’ll do a bit of a balance for the purpose of this today.
48:21
Erin
So if I was to give you a block of time for an hour in a week, how many blocks would you give to time with kids?
48:29
Lauren
If I’m being realistic, it’s usually a few hours in the morning and a few hours after school, not counting. I mean, weekends, I might be spending all day with them. So it’s really hard to say, but I think it probably works out to at least six hours a day. Sometimes it’s less and sometimes it’s more.
48:48
Erin
Yeah.
48:50
Lauren
Yeah.
48:50
Erin
So 6 times 7 is 42.
48:53
Lauren
Yeah, I guess. I guess that’s pretty full time. I’m also very lucky to have help from parents. So when I need to, like from my parents, from grandparents. So when I need to have them take the kids after school for a while, I just feel that’s important to catch the odd. Because I think there’s. I think what. I know you said this is rapid fire, so I’ll try to. I’ll be fast. But I think that in this kind of conversation I both feel, whether it’s internal or external, a pressure to sound like I’m spending enough time with my kids and sound like I’m working enough. Because if I heard someone Else say they’re spending six hours a day with their kids. I’d be like, am I doing that? Am I mothering enough? You know, at least sometimes I would have thought that.
49:32
Lauren
So I, I will try not to caveat all of these numbers, but I just gotta say that, like, some weeks it might be hardly any time with my kids. If it’s a, if, if it’s a work heavy week, I have a big project going on. And some weeks it might be even more than that if I’m in a more family centered season.
49:50
Erin
Yeah, I love that you’ve brought that up because I think it’s really important to avoid the pitfall that we’re writing, like some sort of perfect equation that’s universal for everybody. This is an exercise of being introspective and being, Having that awareness that you were talking about earlier in the podcast, having that presence, and there’s no right answer. I feel like we’re coming full circle to the beginning of what you were saying.
50:15
Lauren
And also, parenting is tricky because if, you know, again, if it’s like 6:30 to 7:30 and my kids are awake and they’re playing with each other, I kind of count that as spending time with them. But I might also be cooking or cleaning or, you know, doing some reading, you know, spending a little time in nature. My kids sometimes come out with me for that, which is great. Right. I might even be like firing off some emails, you know, or same with after school. I’m likely cooking or cleaning or doing something else as well. So I think the layering also makes it tricky. Like when we say those 42 hours with my kids, I’m also going to be hitting other categories during that time for sure. So the equation might not balance mathy sense.
50:59
Erin
And what I’ve found has worked well with myself and with others is to be a bit more specific and call it quality time with kids.
51:07
Lauren
Yeah.
51:08
Erin
So it’s not just being near them. It’s actually like when you want to design your week, how many points of true connection do you want to build into that with your children? So if I was to ask that. Ask you that, looking at it that way, rather than just a sheer quantity of hours with them a week, like.
51:30
Lauren
Sometimes I think it may only be an hour or two of focused quality time a day.
51:35
Erin
Sure. And you know, the way that you could use this is you start with that. Right. Like, this is the way science works. Just start with something.
51:43
Lauren
Yeah.
51:44
Erin
And then, and then adjust accordingly as you’ve had your own experiences. So why don’t we put 14? So that’s two a day. Work around the house.
51:54
Lauren
I was thinking about this. I would like to say an hour a day. I think it might actually be more a lot of days, but I think let’s do an hour. Yeah. And keeping it focused and everything. I think that feels reasonable.
52:07
Erin
Food. So this is your. Not just the cooking, but you were talking about fermenting and other things you do related to food.
52:15
Lauren
It’s probably at least an hour a day too.
52:17
Erin
Exercise.
52:18
Lauren
I want that to be an hour a day. And I think that’s something. I broke it up. But again, I was thinking about this in advance because I think that. I think it averages out because sometimes it’s. Sometimes it’s more than that. Right. Sometimes it’s definitely less than that. But I think an hour a day is a good aim.
52:37
Erin
Nice. And there’s information on the website about flexing your week, which is doing exactly what you’re describing. Time with your fiance. So again, quality time. Quality time.
52:50
Lauren
Again. I would like, I think maybe an hour a day, though that can be broken up. A half hour in the morning and a half hour later. You know, if we’re thinking that feels like it’s reasonable to aim for.
53:00
Erin
Great! Nature. How many blocks for nature?
53:07
Lauren
I’m doubling up on it so often.
53:10
Erin
That’s okay, though, because when you do your analysis, this. If you went for a walk with your kids or went. Let’s say you went for a walk with your fiance and you’re chatting and you’re having that moment of connection. That’s both.
53:24
Lauren
Yeah, totally. Or so often it’s a walk for me. But I will say, though, that I think even when I’m not in a super walky mode, I was sick a couple weeks ago and I felt like my energy was just zapped and I just was not getting out for the, like, intentional exercise. But I still felt the urge to go sit outside even.
53:44
Erin
Yes.
53:44
Lauren
Even if it’s just to have a beverage or to make a call or even if I’m just like googling a few things or writing down a list. I would just want to go outside anyways just to be, you know, have the trees and the birds. Because I know that it charges me up.
53:59
Erin
Yeah.
53:59
Lauren
Different kind of way. So probably at least an hour a day.
54:04
Erin
Okay. So the next one is learning.
54:07
Lauren
Again, so often this doubles up, but at least a couple hours a week.
54:13
Erin
What about work? So that includes networking, the projects.
54:18
Lauren
Yeah.
54:19
Erin
Artistic things, client work. Entrepreneurship, planning and development.
54:23
Lauren
Yeah. So tricky. There would have been a time where I would have felt incredibly guilty to say anything less than like, 20 or 30 hours a week. It flexes so much, depending on what else is going on. I think it’s probably generally at least four hours a day. But again, I will caveat for anyone listening that there’s times it is way less than that, and there’s times where it goes to. Where it definitely just goes to full time. It really varies.
54:57
Erin
Yes. So would that be like five days a week? So 20 hours?
55:02
Lauren
Yeah, we could say that. I’m. I find that so hard because I’m going into a season of working even less. So It’s. It feels funny to even say 20 hours because I’m like, in six months, it’s not going to be that. Like, I know I’m intentionally changing, that I’m intentionally ramping that down, which feels really weird for me. Right. Yeah. But I also know that I also work at times other people don’t, you know, sometimes on the weekends, and that it’s. It’s so all over the place sometimes that it’s. It’s often very difficult to track exactly how much I’m working.
55:41
Erin
Yeah. I mean, I think for those listening, a couple points here. Number one, the equation is a moment in time.
55:49
Lauren
Yeah.
55:50
Erin
So it looks the way it does for whatever is right for you in the moment that you’re in, which is different from a year from now, 10 years from now. A year ago. 10 years ago. And the other thing that I have found helpful with the equation is to really look at when you’re building it. Where are you picking up on points of, as you described, guilt or, you know, like, that’s what rewiring our brain is all about. Is.
56:22
Erin
Is about kind of identifying where are those places where I’m feeling like I. I should. You know, there’s a lot of shoulding involved, or I’m carrying guilt, or I’m carrying, you know, kind of expectations that I haven’t really put on myself. That’s where all of the choice comes in. This is your life. This is your equation. You build that however you want and don’t justify it.
56:47
Lauren
Do you track your work hours?
56:49
Erin
Yep. Now, I. I would say that I. In planning my week, I allocate certain blocks of time for work. So I do see if I’m working more or less. And, you know, there’s probably cues along the way as well about whether or not your equation needs to evolve. So if I find that I’m working more, then it’s just, again, the equation is not the answer, it’s the prompt. It tells you, okay, so fine, I’m working more than I had expected. Is that okay? Do I want to be? How do I feel about it? And maybe my equation needs to adjust. Or knowing myself, is this going to. What’s. What are the trade offs? Because there’s only so many hours in a week. So what have I said no to as a result of that? Am I comfortable with that?
57:43
Erin
Do I, knowing myself, is this going to take me to a point where I’m going to feel out of equilibrium and seeing that ahead of time rather than after it happens?
57:54
Lauren
Yeah. And there’s been times, too, where I’ve only counted the time where I’m having direct client contact or maybe meetings as work. And then I realized I’m working way more than that.
58:05
Erin
Oh, yeah, right. Okay, let’s do some rapid fire. Number one, finish the sentence. Fulfillment is…
58:10
Lauren
Balance and peace.
58:12
Erin
Two, give me an example of a small moment of joy you had in the last 24 hours.
58:23
Lauren
Looking at my little 3 year old’s expression on his face. I mean, there’s been more than one. My older one too, but the little one, you can kind of see the gears turning and like the moment where they realize something.
58:37
Erin
I love that.
58:38
Lauren
So I told him were going to go strawberry picking tomorrow. And you can like, see it hit his face, right? Like, you can, yeah. You see him going from like, not having imagined that to, like imagining what that is and kind of lighting up. And it’s just. It’s so. It’s so sweet.
58:56
Erin
What is a book you read or a podcast you listened to that changed the way you think?
59:02
Lauren
I try to have every book or podcast I listen to change the way I think in some small way. I think Anna Lemke, she talks about addiction and mental health and some of the science around addiction, not just for actual substances, but for anything that. That is releasing a huge amount of dopamine at once. So, like, that can be digitally. It can. I mean, really, even things that are good for us, that are extremely pleasureful, we can take too far.
59:35
Erin
Yeah, I was just looking that up because I wasn’t familiar with Anna Lemke. So she is an American psychiatrist specializing in substance abuse and addictions. Okay.
59:46
Lauren
So I. I just listened to her on a podcast called Creativity Unbound, and I’d heard her probably a year before, but it was interesting hearing her talk. That that interview is a little. A little more broad. Like she talks A bit more about parenting, about things that are like a little outside of her kind of specific area of expertise. Although it’s well worth going a deep dive into specifically addictions stuff with her because I think as a culture, addiction is very normalized of all kinds. I think again, I think when we think addiction, we think of substance abuse and the like and everything around that and around what treatment for that has looked like in the past. And I think broadening our minds as to how the science of addiction is applicable to other things has been really important.
01:00:40
Erin
In one sentence, what does freedom look like to you?
01:00:44
Lauren
What came to me first was like an. An ability to observe our own minds. Like an ability to. Because freedom has meant different things to me at different times around like time freedom or financial freedom or all the different physical freedom, the different ways of feeling, freedom of movement. Right. Has meant different things. But I think now what I feel is the ability to like, explore the different levels of awareness and to see ourselves from the outside and then see that from the outside and to. To have our minds and, you know, hearts or souls have a sense of freedom to access that.
01:01:32
Erin
That’s. That’s a neat answer. Very spiritual answer. What is the coolest place you’ve visited or a place you visited that exceeded your expectations?
01:01:41
Lauren
You know, so I live in Owen Sound, Ontario, and I think Graham Bruce Counties, having moved back here, continue to exceed my expectations. I. It’s like peeling back layers of what I thought I knew and I appreciate it even more. If I was talking about faraway travel, I would say Mexico City. Going to the. There’s anthropology. A national anthropology museum there that really. I just. That definitely exceeded my expectations. The whole experience of Mexico City, but particularly diving into another place’s history and anthropologically was. Is really cool, but I do feel that even locally and even historically speaking, I just think there’s so much here and there’s so much beauty and there’s the escarpment and there are the fields and there’s the water and there that like there are all kinds of different forests and different places and it’s really amazing.
01:02:45
Erin
You should apply for a grant with Tourism Ontario.
01:02:48
Lauren
They should hire me. Hey, actually, don’t hire me. I am a free woman. Do not hire me. But feel free to. I can help you.
01:02:55
Erin
Yeah. Yeah. Little kickback. Yeah. What is something you do regularly to fill your own cup?
01:03:02
Lauren
I mean, really spending some time outside is. Is so important to me. It doesn’t matter how I do it. Right. Like, it doesn’t Always fill my cup in the same way. But opening myself to those moments. Right. Not just grumpily walking my kid to school, but being like, I get to walk my kid to school. I get to, I get to take this time. Yeah, it’s just I, I opening myself. I guess I wouldn’t say it’s the nature itself. It’s opening myself to that.
01:03:34
Erin
Right. And the attitude that you were talking about earlier, awesome. Lauren, thank you so much for being here. This was so lovely. It’s been a pleasure getting to know you more. And I think that, you know, I love how you were able to give some very specific examples around singing and how that is so applicable to all of us in whatever it is that we’re trying to do. You know, I think a lot of the things we talked about today are just so universal in nature and extend beyond just using our voice. But it’s a beautiful analogy.
01:04:11
Lauren
Thank you. I love hearing that. I love talking about the voice. And if you’re listening to this and you found any of that particularly interesting, useful, helpful, please find me. I’m. I’m @bylaurenbest on Instagram. That’s a good place. But you can also find me however else and I’d love to hear your thoughts, questions about the especially the singing side of things. But if anything really hit, I’d love to know.
01:04:34
Erin
Love it. Thank you so much, Lauren. This has been great. Have a great rest of your day.
01:04:39
Lauren
Thank you. You too.
01:04:42
Erin
If you like this podcast and want to support it, tell a friend about it. You can also connect with Fulfillment Equation through Instagram or Facebook for updates on new episodes, daily doses of joy and fun travel tips. And if you are really into it, feel free to join the Fulfillment Equation community through the website at fulfillmentequation.com where you will get a weekly email with insider information and free resources to help you build more fulfillment into your own life. Life. I hope you enjoyed the episode today. There’s lots more to come this season, so stay tuned.
