Lawrence Loh on Connecting with Others and Your Inner Voice

01:50
Erin
Lawrence is currently exploring creative writing and composing his first novel. He meets with tutors regularly to learn Spanish, French, and Mandarin. He’s even learning the lyrics to Taylor Swift’s songs as a way of connecting with his daughters. And above all of this, Lawrence is deliberately and enthusiastically learning about finding joy and about living. That is the piece we are going to dig into in our conversation today. Welcome Lawrence. 

02:18
Lawrence
Thanks for having me, Erin. Really appreciate it. 

02:21
Erin
Thank you for being here. Now, normally at this point I ask the guest to tell me your story because I think it’s a great way for listeners to get to know you in your own words. But I wanted to frame it a little differently with you today, so I’m throwing you a bit of a curveball here. Where I thought we could start is, you finished a year sabbatical focused on creativity and reflection, so I was interested in the journey that led you to that point, what you were hoping to get out of that year, and then what your lessons learned were at the end of the time. 

02:57
Lawrence
That’s wonderful, Erin. Thank you. And you know, just to clarify, I think at the time that we’re recording this podcast right now, I’m actually just halfway through my sabbatical. And it has really been six months so far of rediscovery and reflection and yes, very much in respect of learning and also reclaiming and recapturing a lot of joy in my life and together with my loved ones, my friends, my family. I think the easiest way to explain as to how I got here is really reflected and borne out over the last four years. You know, as you mentioned in my introduction, I was and still am a public health physician. I’m one that has really had a focus on leadership and specifically driving forward change. 

03:52
Lawrence
My previous roles at Region of Peel when I was an associate medical officer of health were really focused on environmental health, the healthy built environment, healthy complete communities, chronic disease prevention, really trying to address many of the things that sicken and kill Canadians every single year. But what was interesting was it was really none of those challenges that ended up unfolding in the last four years. In 2019, the provincial government announced that they were going to restructure the public health system before the year was out. And that was the big budget announcement in April 2019 where we discovered we’d be going from 34 health units to 10 mega health units. You know, there’d be a 30% budget cut and it would all happen within a year. So that was actually what drove me back to pen and paper. I had dabbled in writing before. 

04:47
Lawrence
I’d also dabbled in improv in undergrad, you know, short one act plays. And so I really wanted to start writing. And my inspiration for my writing has always been that gave my daughters, not just the Taylor Swift lyrics, but my daughters. So, I really put pen to paper and I started writing and I actually finished two fiction manuscripts where, you know, I’ve written around a strong Asian Canadian, Asian American women protagonist because I’m trying to create role models for my daughter’s flaws and all. So that was really the inspiration, especially amidst a public health system that was in tremendous turmoil in the 2019-2020 calendar year. But then, as you know, just as I was going to try to delve more into the writing, we were thrust into the world of COVID and the pandemic. And I think that needs no introduction. 

05:37
Lawrence
I became the health officer for the Region of Peel on March 13, 2020. That was maybe a great time to become a health officer. And then basically through two years, worked with an excellent team and an excellent community. Just inspired by so many partners and leaders within the Peel community to beat back the virus and to vaccinate people, to really protect them. And while I know that there was some recognition given for my leadership, I firmly believe that it was recognition given for that team and those partners because there was no way one single person could have done any of that altogether. And so that was definitely, for me, at least in my recent years, my most defining leadership moment. That’s how I see it. 

06:27
Lawrence
And that led to me taking on a role with the College of Family Physicians of Canada, which, you know, it’s a great organization. I’ve. I’ve always had a, you know, a positive engagement with it. Being trained and specialized in family medicine. I was a peer reviewer, I was an examiner. I was one of their inaugural Global Health Fellows. So I was very thrilled about the opportunity to take on the helm of the College of Family Physicians of Canada. But I think that was where, you know, I started to notice something. And this goes back to what you were saying at the very beginning. Right now, the family medicine system and primary care is in absolute crisis and shambles. 

07:04
Lawrence
Frankly, I think it’s just underinvestment and also a significant political inertia in making the right changes that need to be done to support family medicine and to support patients in getting the access and the care and the support and resources that they need. And I think there’s a whole sea change that needs to happen in reorienting towards public health as well as primary care services, because it really is about. I often say things like hospitals, specialist clinics. Those are like the courtrooms of the healthcare system. You don’t really want to be there unless you absolutely have to be. Right? You really want to be having things taken care of in the community. And that starts with family medicine and that starts with public health. And so I was here again. Found myself thrust into another crisis. 

07:50
Lawrence
And I think after having sort of gone at it again and coming to the end of three years, at the end of December 2023 with COVID plus working on the family medicine crisis, I felt to myself, you know, I feel like my leadership is getting tied to adversity. Like the idea that I am a leader in adversity and that’s actually not who I am. I mean, the reality is that I’m actually a very positive, optimistic fellow. I’m an extrovert. I enjoy meeting people, I enjoy talking. I’m genuinely curious about getting to know, people and making sure they’re okay and making sure that we’re all coming together and collaborating, exchanging ideas. 

08:30
Lawrence
I attribute this a lot to how I, I was born in London, Ontario, but I did high school in Malaysia, which is a very different place, obviously very gregarious, very tropical, you know, but London also, small town and you know, you just, everyone kind of looks so. And then obviously through university and medical school, engaging both in the creative side as well as in student leadership etc, had always oriented me towards, you know, believing in, you know, good things that could be done or positive things that could be done. And so I think that was where I sort of worked with the board of the college and said, you know, maybe it’s an opportunity for us to, you know, move on to different things. And so that’s where I’ve landed myself in my sabbatical at this point in time. 

09:12
Lawrence
That’s really kind of how I’ve got here. But a lot of it, like I said, is just really, it really came down to, I think I can still remember the moment when I just realized, I said, you know, what the crisis, the challenges, the constant putting out of fires, you know, just feeling your autonomic nervous system just on end for no end, you know, without any rest. But, and I just said, you know, I just, I really need to redefine and recraft where I’m going in my mid career. And that’s, I, I think that’s what led to my decision to pursue a sabbatical this year, apart from the organizations and places that I played previously. 

09:51
Erin
Yeah. And in some ways it’s not surprising because as you’re talking about it, you know, I’m thinking you chose as a medical professional a more preventative specialty. You didn’t choose acute care. And so in some ways it’s not surprising that that would be really draining after a while. You didn’t sign up for that. 

10:16
Lawrence
Yeah. The truth is that I don’t think many people in public health signed up for the pandemic. I think the pandemic, many of us see it as our great war. Right. Like that’s, that was the big challenge. But you know, I will obviously state that, you know, emergency preparedness and response is a core public health function, but it’s one that we never hope to have to engage in. And it’s also one that, you know, literature is very clear. It’s not something like, I mean, irregular operations is not meant to be the way things always work. Right. And I think I would use the analogy of airlines. Right. You know, most days, believe it or not, contrary to what you have been told, your flight likely will take off and land on time and without incident. Right. 

11:02
Lawrence
But you don’t ever want to be in a situation where it was, for example, when the air travel system started getting started up again after Covid, where literally every day felt like you’re riding a bicycle on fire. Right. Like so I think despite the popular interpretations of air travel and the challenges there. And I fly a fair bit. I’ve always flown a fair bit for personal as well as professional reasons. You know, I, I just finished a four country swing through Europe and all, you know, I think out of all the seven flights I took, all of them are on time except for one. Right. So the whole point is, I think people are able to lead through adversity, they are able to forge through, but there is also recognition that when adversity becomes the norm. 

11:46
Erin
Yes. 

11:47
Lawrence
Something that you then have to sort of reconsider and say, well, what’s happening here and why and, and might I be doing something different? 

11:53
Erin
Yeah. And I think while your experience was a leadership role in that situation, I think a lot of people can really relate to what you’re saying because it was, you know, for anybody living during those years, kind of crisis after crisis, uncertainty after uncertainty, just constant fluctuation. I remember, you know, it was impossible to make a plan for anything. So being proactive, being planful, sometimes even being positive was very trying for a lot of people. And I think a lot of people were experiencing probably what you were describing in terms of just being really, I want to say worn out or just kind of fatigued from dealing with crisis on a day to day basis for so long. 

12:41
Lawrence
Yes, absolutely. And I would venture, Erin, I mean, I think you and I probably would agree on this. I think we’re not necessarily seeing an end to the nature of crises that are continuing to unfold, but it is really this idea like. And I think probably with the length of time that we’ve seen, and I’m no psychiatrist, so I mean, I would have to lean on a psychiatry colleague to confirm what I believe. But if you think about histories of crises in, throughout the world and throughout history, most of the length of time that we’ve had this, we’ve been in crisis both during the pandemic and in the post pandemic phase probably is only equaled by a few moments in history, like the six years of World War II. Right. And you had just the couple years around 2008. 

13:33
Lawrence
You had sort of the aftermath even of 2001, you know, and the war on terror. But the reality is that it’s most of the times, especially, you know, in ordinary times, most crises are not meant to necessarily stretch on. And those times that do, they tend to. They tend to really challenge people’s energy. And it really, in my case at least, in having dealt with both Covid and then being thrust into the primary care crisis and then wondering, just saying, you know, like, there’s got to be a some silver lining or there’s got to be some happiness or joy out there and not necessarily finding it in the immediate was what sort of drove me to pursue other options. 

14:13
Erin
Yeah, I think one thing I’ve noticed about those kinds of situations is that it does take a lot of time to turn things around into. I, I’ll say recover, but it’s really more of a rebalancing. And so I don’t know whether this is an unfair question, but have you found that in the six months that you’ve been on sabbatical, have you found some of that balance restoring or are you experiencing, you know, kind of what I’m describing in terms of it’s going to be a longer journey of rebalancing.

14:46
Lawrence
Well, so I think like many other people, I am driven by my sort of own internal compass, but also by what’s happening to family and friends as well as just the broader, you know, the broader worldwide milieu. And from what I can see, you know, I think it has been a good opportunity for me to sort of introspect, which is very important, by the way, for those who might be listening, who are extroverts, sometimes it is important to get in touch with that inner voice and to. And to reconnect because, you know, we. Especially since I’m definitely someone who I would consider an extreme extrovert, like, I basically. My calendar is basically filled with meeting up with people. 

15:28
Lawrence
My goal whenever I go anywhere is basically to try to see as many people or catch up with as many people that I might know, even in passing in a certain place, because you never know where those relationships and those conversations will take you as a, you know, as a group, as friends. But it is so important to get back in touch with it. So I think it’s been very good for me getting back in touch with my inner voice, you know, reminding myself of who I am and what I believe in. You know, especially when you’re leading through crisis. And especially in Covid, I saw this really significantly. 

16:03
Lawrence
When you’re made out to be, you know, the face of, or, you know, a visible sign of some sort of calamity, there are a lot of things that people will impose upon you, at least in their thoughts, around who you are and what you are and that. And, and maybe be less than charitable in terms of what they believe you to be when they don’t even know you. Right. So you need. So, you know, it’s all it in a way. And, and I’ll be honest with you, I don’t know how celebrities do it or politicians. You know, I have tremendous respect, you know, for the vitriol and the challenges they must face all the time. It puts you out of whack with your inner self, with knowing who you are internally. 

16:43
Lawrence
So it’s been very good for me in that front and then also being able to hear from my family and friends and, you know, find some reassurance around crisis has been good, but I think the broader, you know, there’s many countries that are going through elections this year, including our southern neighbor and Britain just in a couple of weeks that are really going to. It was interesting. I think one thing that I spent with my European colleagues was just realizing that how many of these small little decisions, when you all add up, it’s actually going to determine whether we manage to come together and work our way out of crisis or whether it’s just going to continue to exacerbate what we’re facing. 

17:20
Lawrence
So while I think my time away and the last little while has helped me reconnect within my circle and with myself, I am trying to get a good handle. And the primary care crisis hasn’t gone away by any stretch of the imagination. So trying to keep abreast of all the other stuff that’s still happening out there that still challenges us as a society is also something that I’m trying to work in even as I’ve taken a bit of a step away. 

17:46
Erin
Yeah, I’d love to follow the path of a couple of things that you just touched on there. So connecting with others and connecting with yourself. So I have these eight foundations for Fulfillment Equation. And one thing that I have learned through these conversations is that there was actually a ninth one that I was missing, and maybe there’s more, too. So this is great. This is what. This is all part of the learning journey. The one that I hadn’t initially identified that came through loud and clear as a theme in a lot of these dialogues was community and connection. And I noticed that you recently wrote a really interesting blog post about connection and about, you know, kind of three simple things that people can do to connect. 

18:36
Erin
I think it was really timely because a lot of us are out of practice with connection after many years of hunkering down for the pandemic. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that and those three things. 

18:50
Lawrence
One of the things that I. I’ve been oftentimes touched by, when my friends talk to me, they often say, yeah, well, we don’t see each other. Usually it’s only because you came town and reached out. And that was where I started thinking to myself, well, you know, maybe there’s. There’s something here and. And, you know, just maybe to help through the three things. So the. Basically, the three things are, you know, when you think of someone, you wonder how they are. Don’t wonder about it. Just, you know, send them a text, shoot them an email, say, hey, I thought of you, whatever the case might be, and look to connect. I think the second thing is always when you’re going somewhere, you know, just think about who you might know there. You might be going somewhere for work, for a conference. 

19:28
Lawrence
There is always time. And I think this is me as the extreme extrovert coming out here. But there is always time to find time for a coffee or a drink or a meal, you know, no matter how hard you might be working or what conference you might be at. And I’m very fond of even, like, you know, time boxing myself out, you know, in the evening hours after a conference ends or even after a conference dinner ends, to be able to make time for an old friend. But I think those two things are also related to the third thing, which is how you interact with people when you’re actually with them. 

19:56
Lawrence
And a lot of it is really, I say it’s really about being curious and interested in the person and what’s going on with them, but really asking that one question, which is, where are you going now? Right? Because that allows you to then update your Rolodex around if you’re thinking about them in the future and be like, hey, I wonder if they landed there or if they’re moving somewhere. Then you’re like, oh, hey, well, now that I know you’re going to be in, you know, in Chicago instead of LA kind of thing, then I’ll just, Next time I’ll see you in Chicago kind of thing. So those are the three things. You know, reach out when you think of someone, reach out when you’re heading to their town and, you know, be curious in them and understand where they might be going. 

20:28
Lawrence
So that helps you to continue reaching out. It’s kind of like, it’s a bit of a positive feedback loop. So that’s really it. But, but that’s what I’ve employed. You know, I, it’s just how I’ve always operated and done things and, but I’m always, I’m, you know, stunned or surprised when friends say, yeah, well, we live in the same city. We live like, you know, 20 minutes away. And, and we, we have. This is the first time we’re seeing each other in two years. And they are friends. Right. But it’s just, you know, life gets in the way and all these other things. So, so for me, I’m, I’m always grateful because, I mean, it is the greatest gift on earth to be able to spend time with someone else because neither of you are getting that time back. 

21:17
Lawrence
And it takes energy and it takes, you know, a genuine curiosity. As I mentioned in listening to a perspective and a viewpoint that’s not your own. And, and I get that life and demands and responses get in the way, but it’s actually a little bit of a treat. I’ve always said it is time well spent. I have never regretted time spent with someone else. Just really getting to hear where they are and what they’re doing. 

21:43
Erin
Yeah. And your tips sound really simple and yet I don’t think we do them very often. You know, I think a lot of us, we hear from the same people in our kind of small circle regularly, but once in a while you will hear from somebody who you haven’t connected with in a few years. And I always love those moments. I’m always so excited to hear from someone and get to know what they’re up to and what’s next, and it’s a real treat. So you’re actually providing a gift to someone when you’re doing this? 

22:14
Lawrence
Absolutely. And if I could just add, it’s the funniest thing though, because there are always going to be things that remind you of some, if you think about it. Right. Like, you know, I’ve got my ipod and I always. You may have seen my other blog post where I talk about the soundtrack of our lives and the idea that different songs from different parts of our life are intrinsically connected to the people and memories that are there. So there is this one hip hop song that whenever I hear it, I think of this one graduate student who came with us on a trip to the Dominican Republic because we were literally debriefing, you know, late night after a field visit at, during that research trip. And she said, hey, you like hip hop, you should listen to this song. 

22:53
Lawrence
And literally whenever this song comes up on my ipod, I’m just like, have I heard from Marissa lately? I’m gonna give Marissa a message, right? So it’s something like that. Like, I have another friend who once talked about how guys really don’t do laundry, which by the way, is a stereotype because I am someone who likes to do laundry and actually pull my weight at home. I just don’t fold it the right way, apparently. But. 

23:17
Erin
But, but all that, it’s the thought that counts. 

23:20
Lawrence
Well, that’s, I like to think so. But the funny thing about it is that’s where it comes in with my friend’s comments. Like, he’s like, we don’t think, we don’t know if it’s clean until there’s a staple tag there. And you know how many staple tags you take off of a dry cleaned cloth. So I think about this guy all the time just from that one comment. So you’ll be surprised about the things that will, that will remind you of people that I see as just natural prompts to then reach out and connect. 

23:45
Erin
Oh, I love that. That’s so funny. You brought up such an interesting memory for me. And I had this grade 12 physics teacher, Ms. Fry. Oh, hi Ms. Fry. If you’re out there, she talked. I mean, God bless her, I even went into math. I love physics. I don’t remember anything she taught me except that one day she made a comment about her husband’s sock balls when she does the laundry. His ball, his socks are always balls. And she was frustrated with having to take them apart. And every single time I do laundry, I think of Ms. Fry because my kids do exactly that. They just, they take off their socks. It’s a ball every time. And I sit there for 15 minutes taking apart, you know, three kids softballs for the week, I guess like 60 sockballs. 

24:38
Erin
And I think of her the whole time, every single time. And that’s been like, what, three decades? Like. 

24:44
Lawrence
Yeah, yeah. 

24:45
Erin
Crazy. 

24:46
Lawrence
Exactly. Yeah. You never know what’s going to prompt you to reach out to someone. That’s one of the. I think that’s one of the coolest things about being alive, frankly. So. 

24:55
Erin
Yes. And these shared experiences. 

24:58
Lawrence
Yes. 

25:00
Erin
So I talked at the beginning about your love of learning. Do you think of it like that? And when did you first become aware that you just love learning? 

25:11
Lawrence
You know, I think a lot of it just came down to the fact that I’ve always been. I’m always looking stuff up. And I think most people are right. Perhaps it’s the. It’s. And maybe I’m. And this is actually really exciting because now I’m starting to make new neural connections in my mind as I’m thinking about this question alongside your previous question. So when I think about someone, right. I will reach out to them. But there’s stuff. Sometimes I’ll be like, I wonder why X is the way it is. Or I wonder it’s. And so there’s a lot of people, like, I wonder why. I don’t really care. I, I will literally go down so many rabbit holes on Wikipedia on my phone. Like, I’ll just be like, I, I. No idea. This happened to me actually, in 2022. 

25:51
Lawrence
I was out in Portland with some friends. I was at a microbrewery and were just chatting. And then there was just this weird moment where I realized I was like, you know, if the way. If the natural way of things go, and I will. I will mention that in terms of my identity, everything that we talked about is immaterial and second to what I consider my most important identity, which is as father and husband. Right. That’s actually my, that’s. That’s become my big orientation in life. And, and I, I just had this. This moment of clarity, went out with my friends where I said, well, the natural way of things goes, then I’m not always going to be here. Right. And what does that mean for me in that identity? Right. And that was. 

26:31
Lawrence
That was an extremely jarring moment and no word of a lie, I think. I went back to my hotel room that night and I literally spent the rest of the night reading about, like, is there an afterlife? You know, how is conscious, like this consciousness, is it the generator of consciousness? Or there is the brain, the generator of consciousness, or a receptor of consciousness? You remember the multiverse theory all. And I’m sitting here, I’m just like, none of this is helping me feel any better. But I’m still. 

26:55
Erin
That is one heck of a rabbit hole. That is impressive. 

26:58
Lawrence
Such a rabbit hole. And then, and then I actually got into that and then even further. I actually reached out to a friend of mine who is an emerge doc, but also majored in philosophy and relative studies in undergrad and went for lunch and he’s just said, yeah, well you know what man? You’re never going to be able to know because the only consciousness you can study is your own. And so there’s only one way for you to figure it out. And I’m just like, ugh, but yes, so I, I have a tendency to, so yes, think of someone, reach out to them, Think of something. I’m gonna look into that a bit further definitely. 

27:34
Erin
Oh, that is some deep curiosity. I love that. 

27:37
Lawrence
Yeah. 

27:39
Erin
So that actually kind of brings me to circle back to the second part of connection, which is connection with yourself. What are some of the things that you have found, you know, either within your sabbatical time or just up until this point of your life. What are some of the things you found have been helpful in connecting with yourself and hearing your inner voice? 

28:02
Lawrence
Yeah, I mean, you know, in terms of practical things to do, obviously having cadre of trusted and close friends, you know, being able to reach out to them, you know, I oftentimes, I do oftentimes think that maybe I should do more professional sort of counseling etc, but at the same time I have some really good folks for decades relied on their counsel, you know, my friends, you know, certainly working with my wife and other friend who’s basically been through the pandemic and also the primary care challenges with me. But I mean, so it’s all these things, right? Like, so, you know, having a, having a, you know, a partner you can trust, having you know, friends that you can trust. 

28:44
Lawrence
These have all been, you know, really significant resources for reflecting sort of my inner self and being kind of like, well, is this, you know, this is how I understand myself as, or understanding things as, you know, what does that mean? You know, I go for runs. That’s the other big thing that I do. That’s a practice and running actually is related to my creative writing as well. Right. Because what I do is I’ll run and I’ll think through storylines or I’ll think through, you know, prose that relates to how I’m feeling or what I’m doing. So, so that’s another thing. And then the last thing I would say is musical expression. I think there is definitely. I am, without question, I am a musical soul. I, you know, I love karaoke, I play piano, I play guitar. 

29:25
Lawrence
And it’s it during the pandemic, that was such an outlet for me to just sort of reconnect again because the song stays the same. The finger, the fingering or whatever the case, you’re like, it’s the same, right? But you have changed and time has changed and there’s, there’s an opportunity for the past to reach out and maybe give you, like, a little nugget or Easter egg that might help you know, in the present, or it may be something that you’re just sort of saving for the future that you can go back to and say, when I play song. So I play, you know, I am well known for doing this at home and my daughter’s notice. 

29:58
Lawrence
It is like, I’ll go into the laundry room and, you know, put laundry in and washer, dryer, do some folding, whatever, and then I come out because our piano is right next to our laundry room. And then I’ll just sit down and just play something like, just like. It literally could be anything. It could be whatever I’m feeling. It might be Oasis, it might be, you know, Beyonce. It could literally be anything. 

30:15
Erin
Right? 

30:16
Lawrence
And, And I, I’m very well known for also just, like, having an iPad next to it, and I literally just look up the chords on ultimate, you know, ultimate guitar and just, like. And just, like, rock out. Like, one song takes a few minutes and it’s really it. So, yeah, the running, the music and then the family and friends, I think those are the big things in terms of practical ways to connect. I think also your internal orientation, and this is the more abstract thing that I was going to mention as well, is really important in terms of, like, your worldview and how you see the world. I’ve been told by many friends that this is very naive, but I generally believe that most things work out, and I generally believe that most people are good. 

30:51
Lawrence
Despite everything that’s happened in the last few years. And I, I was gonna say it nourishes me to know that you affirm the same. Yeah. Because it’s funny because I, it’s like, I, despite all the challenges of crisis that we’ve lived through in the last few years, I still believe that and I still hold on to that ardently. And I think the other thing, abstractly that helps me stay in tune with my inner voice and myself, is my personal philosophy on identity. And this was really forged by growing up between Canada and Malaysia. And, you know, as you can tell, I’m someone who’s read as East Asian. And for those of us who are East Asians or Asian Canadians, Asian Americans, the old saying is that, well, you know, neither side kind of accepts us, right? 

31:35
Lawrence
We’re, we’re not enough for that side, and we’re too much for the other side. And what I’ve discovered is that identity is actually deeply personal. Identity is actually what you say you are and not what others say you are. Right? And I, even to this day, and many, if you have any viewers that are Chinese or East Asian, they’ll probably relate to this. The fact that I can’t speak Mandarin as well as I would like to, and that’s why I’m getting tutoring done, is often seen as a point of shame for Chinese people. A lot of people just say, wow, you can’t be Chinese and not speak Chinese, right? And I’m just like, you know what? I can be just as Chinese as I want to because I still celebrate Chinese New Year. I still love Chinese food. 

32:11
Lawrence
I got a, I got off the plane from Europe and I went for noodles. That’s how much I missed my Chinese food when I was away in Europe. And frankly speaking, like, it’s not you that gets to say that you’re Chinese. I believe that I’m just this weird amalgam culture of, you know, a beautiful tropical paradise in Malaysia, you know, this wonderful home that we’ve, that I’m privileged to live on as a settler here on Turtle island in Canada. And, you know, the Chinese culture, that’s just all part of who I am. It’s the same amalgam of how I choose to identify and how I choose to go forward. So that has actually helped me a lot, especially where try to sort of stereotype or pigeonhole me one way or the other. I, I’ll give you a good example. 

32:48
Lawrence
During the pandemic, a lot of people suggested that my allegiances to Canada might not necessarily be fully loyal, right? And, and you sit there and you just say, well, you know, I joked about, this goes back to my improv days. I joked about, I was like, well, you know, I, maybe I, I, my Mandarin’s not that great. I would make a really crappy spy for the people to which they’re Just to which people say, no, that’s exactly what a spy would say. And I’m just like, no. Like, the reality is, like, you have to be secure in the knowledge of who you are and you in your identity, believing that you are all the parts of all the different places and people that have touched you and that have. That have carried you forward. So I think that’s, you know, in the. 

33:28
Lawrence
In. In the internal sense, like, you know, being very. At least having an optimistic view and. And being trusting, I think is a lot easier than assuming everything’s on fire and being very clear about your identity being, you know, you and your parts and the things that have moved you rather than what other people suggest you are, I think are also important things that keep me in touch with my inner voice. 

33:48
Erin
Yeah, that’s really interesting. I’m so glad that you shared that experience because I think that, you know, I can better appreciate now what a fine line it must be to try to make that balancing act between, are you Asian enough, but don’t be too Asian. I mean, the closest I can get to is as a woman, you know, are you female enough, but don’t be too female. Like, don’t be too sexy or whatever. Is the conception of being a female. And it is. Yeah. I mean, honestly, why the effort and energy that we must all be putting into trying to find these, like, perfect balances on behalf of everyone else, by the way, because. Because I don’t need to define that for myself, nor do you. 

34:32
Lawrence
Exactly. And I think that, I mean, and your point around sort of the challenges that women face, especially for me as a girl, dad, raising two daughters and being an ardent feminist, like, I fully understand that. Like, I could feel you’re absolutely bang on with your own experiences. The reality is it’s not what people say about what you wear or how you choose to present yourself or how you choose to, like, whether you eat this or you do that or you know, like, the reality comes down to it’s your life. And yes, we are all so many intersections, but the person that knows those intersections best is you. Right? 

35:06
Erin
Right. 

35:07
Lawrence
And it is important for you to be secure in the knowledge that you are you and that other people who are basically trying to say, well, you’re not Chinese, you’re not Malaysian, you know, or you’re not Canadian. Right. I mean, it’s like. Well, no, I think I’m actually all three of those in this really weird jumble. 

35:23
Erin
And it’s possible to be all three. 

35:25
Lawrence
Exactly. And in your Experience, like, yeah, you can be, you know, someone who is. It’s just like it goes back to just all these different gender stereotypes around, you know. Well, you know, I’m just like, no, I really appreciate that my girls are both into soccer, but also into music. Like, that’s like whatever. They can handle whatever they want to be, frankly. 

35:42
Erin
Right, right. I also really like the beliefs that you shared and I wanted to share a very mathematical approach to why, I think, why I’m comfortable with believing that more often than not things work out and in general people are doing their best, people are good. And that is because there’s two situations. It’s either true or it’s not true. And if it’s true, then I’m right on for believing it. And if it’s not true, we create our own realities through our beliefs. And so the reality that I am creating for myself and believing that is a far better experience of living than it would be if I didn’t create it. And I don’t have. If it’s not true and I’m wrong, I don’t have control to change that stuff anyway. So I might as well create my own reality through it. 

36:37
Erin
That’s how I think about it. 

36:39
Lawrence
It’s a really great. And that’s just a brilliant way of thinking about it. I think if I would sort of add my perspective onto it. 

36:49
Erin
Yeah. 

36:50
Lawrence
It’s also just, honestly, it’s just mentally easier. 

36:52
Erin
Right. 

36:53
Lawrence
It’s. I feel like, because I do know friends and I have friends who, they are definitely a little bit more pragmatic, a little bit more suspicious, a little bit more, you know, uncertain about motives or the outcomes and it’s draining. Like if you’re sitting there thinking about worst case scenarios or things falling apart all the time, which is an important role to play, mind you know, and I think it’s an important thing to do. Right. 

37:19
Erin
Yeah. 

37:19
Lawrence
I’m not saying that we should go out there and be naive and not plan for, you know, eventualities. Right. But what I’m saying is that if you plan for eventualities and then live your life expecting that those eventualities are all that’s going to happen, that is incredibly draining. Like, you need to have a little hope. Like, and I’m saying this as a Leafs fan of, you know, God knows how many years.

37:37
Erin
That’s the ultimate example. 

37:41
Lawrence
Yeah, that’s exactly. And then you have people who are just like, well, it’s the hope that kills you. I’m just like, no, it’s the hope. That’s all you got, man. It’s point. 

37:49
Erin
Oh, my God. 

37:50
Lawrence
So I think. I think you and I are aligned in the sense that if you’re. In your sense, if it’s true and you create your own reality and you believe that it is where it is. I believe that reality is a lot simpler if you just say, you know what, we know bad things are going to happen, we should plan for those, but let’s just hope for the best. Let’s work for. Work for what? What. What we want to see, which is. Which is presumably things work out. Your flight actually leaves on time and safely. So there you go. 

38:16
Erin
I was also reflecting on your comments about inward connection because you mentioned that you are. You are an extreme extrovert. And I don’t know it. I don’t know how many extreme extroverts I actually know. And I just wanted to observe that. I love how you’re connecting with yourself. Approach involves being with other people. That blows my mind. And I. I love that you’ve shared that, because we’re all different and we get these things, you know, it’s not all like quiet meditation. That’s how you get your connection with yourself. 

38:48
Lawrence
Exactly. Yeah. I believe it or not, I’m not a meditation person. I’ve had many people that have offered or asked, you know, and I had one friend who wanted to do a meditation session with me, and I, you know, I don’t think I ever. I was just like, no, if we’re gonna hang out, I want to talk. But it’s. But it’s fascinating because even leading up to my decision to take this sabbatical, right, I was blessed to. I. I took a trip to Europe. Again, I was in the Netherlands. I went and saw an old friend from high school in Malaysia, where I did high school, who had ended up being a physician in Manchester. And I hadn’t seen her in 25 years. So I got to catch up with her. 

39:23
Lawrence
You know, I talked to friends in London, the Netherlands, you know, and sort of walked through a lot of the challenges that I was, you know, navigating internally. 

39:31
Erin
Yeah. 

39:32
Lawrence
And. And so I shared all my challenges and the things that were happening with them, and it was just amazing to hear the different viewpoints. And, you know, maybe this is also partly the public health researcher in me, but when you start to see some themes come out and there’s like a certain. A certain orientation of saturation in terms of, well, this is maybe where you should go. And I repeated the same thing when I went back to Malaysia from a 25 year high school reunion and for an ethics retreat in Bali. So I was in Asia for 10 days seeing friends in Hong Kong, Taiwan. 

40:00
Lawrence
And then eventually it’s like different people, different cultures, different realities that they’re all living kind enough to share time, energy, expertise, and all of them still landing almost in the same spot in respect of what I should tackle. That sends a really strong message to my inner self. Right. And that helped me orient where I, I was just like, yeah, you know what? That’s, that is right. They’re, they’re right, you know, the. I, I wouldn’t try, I would trust them on anything else. Why wouldn’t I trust them on this? Right? 

40:28
Erin
Yeah. So I have a foundation around connecting with nature and solitude. Is that not fair to extreme extroverts to say that’s universal in nature for us as humans to that we get some degree of fulfillment from solitude? 

40:48
Lawrence
I think it’s completely fair to say because I will tell you that. And maybe it’s a case of it’s not an all or nothing, but it may also be a case of like a primary, secondary because I will tell you one of my most atmospheric experiences of my life was that when I was at a conference in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, and I went hiking in Gros Morne on my own because I didn’t know anyone in town and I had arrived early at the conference and nobody else was there yet, and there was just this one simple loop, it could be done in a morning kind of thing. And I. So I don’t know how much of it was the novelty because I don’t do that a lot and I’m not usually alone a lot. Right? Yeah. 

41:28
Lawrence
So I think it was part novelty, but it was also part, probably what you’re describing as a foundation, the need for solitude, where it was just like a lot of stuff that I was really still holding. This is early on in my term with the College of Family Physicians. A lot of the stuff that I was still holding onto from the pandemic, you know, it gave me almost like a new perspective, right. On how to, on basically it was where I actually coined something what I call the thousand year view. Right. And so the thousand year view, it’s almost tied to the psychological, psychological literature, thinking around just how little we know about our grandparents. Right. It’s like the idea that in three generations everyone and anything that we know is all going to be gone kind of thing. 

42:12
Lawrence
And so it helps you to sort of refocus the idea that, well, you know, not knowing what comes after, you know, if this is. If this is all we have and knowing it’s all going to also be forgotten probably in a thousand years. 

42:23
Erin
Right. 

42:23
Lawrence
And I use the joke often. It’s like, yeah, over a thousand years of humanity managed to survive that long. You know, people in 3024 will look back at us the way we look at people in 1024 and be like, oh, my goodness, look how primitive these folks were. Right, right. And. And so that. That came from just staring at the very top into the inlet. And I can’t remember which part of Gros Morne I was in, but just looking at the fall colors, changing the inlet and. And the small little fishing villages dotting there and just realizing that, yeah, this could all. All of this is. First of all, I’m going to be leaving all of this someday. And secondly, you know, all of us here, like, it’s all going to. 

42:58
Lawrence
If it’s all going to fade away, then we need to make the most of what we can now. And we need to live it right now is live it right. Live it right now and live it right now, meaning do it right as well as live it in the moment. So. So that. That was. So. Yeah, to your point. I. I think there’s probably primary and secondary kind of things. I definitely would not deny, though, that there have definitely been moments of solitude where I have. Which have brought about clarity and a connection to some rejigging of my inner voice. For sure. 

43:25
Erin
Well, that’s good to know. That makes me feel better. 

43:28
Lawrence
Absolutely. 

43:29
Erin
I have one more question, and then we’re going to get into building your equation. So one of the foundations is really just more of a definitional piece, and I explore the difference between happiness and fulfillment. So I was curious about how you see happiness and fulfillment. How are they similar? How are they different? 

43:52
Lawrence
It’s an interesting thing. I think the first thing I’ll just say is that they’re not tied. That’s the most important thing. I think happiness comes from within. You have to. And I think it’s easier. Goes back to what I said about just being positive and having sort of an optimistic worldview. I think there’s also people who are naturally predisposed to happiness and, you know, being jolly, etc. There’s a lot of other people are naturally predisposed to, you know, like I mentioned, more pragmatism or more sort of reservedness and. And really. And. And, you know, and there’s probably people who are on a spec. Like it’s probably like some sort of spectrum of some variety. But I really do think that happiness needs to be separate from fulfillment because the idea should not be that you’re only happy because you’re fulfilled. Right. 

44:35
Lawrence
I think, I think you can find happiness in fulfillment, but you shouldn’t fulfillment. It should be, it should be sufficient, but not necessary, I think is the best way that I would say it. Right. To draw on, to draw on public health etiology, terms of disease. But it’s the idea that. It’s the idea that we choose, we can, we should and can choose to be happy, you know, in any sort of situation or circumstance. I. There were definitely moments of humor during the pandemic. I can share and just. And I should mention the novel you mentioned at the beginning, the memoir that I’m really trying to publish. It’s basically life lessons from pandemic leadership, which I’ve written as letters to my daughters. 

45:22
Lawrence
And so I have a draft and I’ve been trying to pitch agents about it, but there’s 48 letters in total, at least in this working draft. But I’m obviously cognizant that any sort of book, when it moves towards publication may not necessarily look the same at the end as it did at the beginning. But one of the letters talks about the idea that even in darkness, you know, take the darkness and make it light. Right. And so I remember during the fourth wave of the pandemic where we started vaccinating children and youth to offer them protection against the novel virus. And we also started, you know, vaccine passports so that we could, you know, return to normal life, at least in some form, with some certainty and also protect those people who hadn’t yet had a chance to get back vaccinated. 

46:08
Lawrence
I still remember someone started a petition to basically have me removed from my role. And you know, I, I was very distraught initially. I was just like, well, you know, I don’t know why anyone would do this, but I, like I mentioned, I have a very good cadre of friends. And what they did is they decided they were going to sign the petition, but they signed up as almost like Bart Simpson esque names. The, the ones that you. 

46:35
Erin
Oh, that’s awesome. 

46:39
Lawrence
Exactly, exactly. And I’m not supposed to know this story, but I knew who did it because the next day corporate security came back and they said, yeah, we looked at the petition, you know, don’t worry, it’s only got about like 400 signatures on it. I Don’t think it’s going anywhere. And also, I’m not sure half those names are real, so they look a little suspicious. So all that to say. I think even in the darkest moments, like, you know, there’s a petition for my removal, I was laughing my head off. Like, I was just like this is pretty funny. I, I guess so, you know, you choose. I think happiness is something that you can choose no matter how difficult things are. Fulfillment, on the other hand, that’s a little bit more. And it’s. 

47:17
Lawrence
For me, I feel, you know, I feel like there is a lot. Fulfillment is very, it’s a word that’s very value laden, right? It’s like, what is fulfillment? What, what fulfills someone? And, and the reality is that there is such variability in the things as well as the extent of things that will allow someone to feel fulfilled. Right? Yeah, exactly. Intensely personal. And I just remember I’m, you know, now I’m just. Now I’m just sort of rambling and reflecting on my trip in Europe. But I, you know, I, I had a number of friends who were kind enough to welcome me into their homes and they were just like, do you need this? Do you need this other stuff? Do you, do you want some coffee? You want some breakfast? I’m just like, no, I’m not hungry and coffee’s fine. 

47:59
Lawrence
All this other stuff, they’re just like, why are you so easy? And I’m just like, I’m not. It’s like, it’s like, yeah, you’re such an easy guest to take care of, which I don’t know that. I don’t know what other connotations that might have. But no, I mean, the point being though is that what may fulfill someone, what may fulfill one person may well not be. May may actually be the opposite of fulfillment. Even sometimes, sure for them, right? And so I think I find that more challenging to sort of navigate. I think it’s important for people to find fulfillment, but I think it’s a much more challenging concept to navigate in my mind because people have to really be in tune with their inner voice, their wants and needs and know what is going to actually meet that. 

48:45
Lawrence
And definitely they should not tie that to happiness, right? Because imagine if it’s like the only way I’m going to feel fulfilled is if I’ve got, you know, if I’ve got the massive house, the massive car, all this other stuff, then you got a problem, right? Because then you’re never going to be happy. Right. Whereas I think you can always be happy no matter what your circumstance is. And. And then fulfillment is just a matter of. If anything, it’s a matter of looking at things constantly calibrating and seeing as well. Why do. Why. I think that’s the big. It goes back to my Curious George sort of Persona, which is. I would just say, well, why. Why would that fulfill you? Like, I mean, I know what would fulfill me. Right, I know. 

49:23
Lawrence
But I think more important to that, I know why I would feel fulfilled. For example, even. Even just finishing the draft of the book for my daughters, I’ve already sent it to their email accounts. So even if this thing never gets published, I am already fulfilled with the exercise because I know that there are 48 letters to them that are sitting in their personal emails that they can read from their dad. Someday maybe I’ll record a bunch and put them on YouTube. Who knows? So if it gets published, cool. But if not, I feel pretty fulfilled. But I could see other people being kind of like, oh, I haven’t published yet. This is horrible. I feel completely unfulfilled. I’m unhappy, right? No, I think you. 

49:55
Lawrence
I think you have to just constantly look at what will fulfill you, understand the why behind it, and then continue to calibrate. Because the other thing that you’ll know is as life goes on, what may have fulfilled you at one point may not be what will fulfill you in the future either. So you gotta always just. Yeah, you always just gotta be constantly evaluating and reevaluating. So. So that’s kind of how I see happiness and fulfillment individually and then how I think they’re related, which is they really. You know, you should be quite cautious if you’re going to try to link the two of them, especially if. Especially if you’re not necessarily in tune or realistic around the nature of things that would fulfill you. 

50:27
Erin
I think that’s really well said. And I think that, you know, there’s no question for me in doing this work that what I’m learning is that it’s very. Fulfillment is very personal. It’s a personal journey for each person. And, you know, I’m sure for those listening, it would be. Maybe some people even start listening because they think I have answers and I have. I think what we’re getting through these conversations is, you know, really the skills and the frame of mind that you need to lead your own exploration into pursuing an understanding of what fulfillment means to you and that you’re right, it looks different for different People, and it looks different for the same person at different points of time. So it’s about really being in touch with what that looks like for yourself. Yeah. All right, let’s build your equation. 

51:30
Lawrence
Okay. 

51:32
Erin
You’re like, what’s this all about? That’s what we’re gonna do. And I’m actually going to throw an. A new piece on the end of it as well. So the equation part is about being deliberate, about how you’re spending your time having connected with an understanding of what brings you fulfillment. And so we’re going to build your equation in two steps. Number one, we’re going to identify, you know, what are the things that you enjoy spending your time on throughout the week. And then the second step is to quantify that a little bit. Just knowing that, you know, like any good recipe, some things you need two cups of it, and some things you just want a teaspoon. So they’re not always in exact equal proportions. Okay, so for the first step, what do you. 

52:24
Erin
What would you say are those categories of things that you enjoy doing, ways that you spend your time. And you’re also welcome to add in, you know, frankly, sometimes, like, we don’t have to put making dinner, but sometimes there may be ways that you spend your time in the week that are more half to dos, and that’s fine, too. So we can add in some of that, too. 

52:45
Lawrence
Yeah, I mean, I think the number one thing, obviously is, you know, being an equal partner at home and raising my children, that’s. That’s a big thing that brings me fulfillment. You know, I think it’s time with family and friends particularly. And, you know, I. I always say this. I’m always grateful for the conversations, so conversations that range from the irrelevant to the insight, the irreverent to the insightful is what I say. So that. That brings me a lot of fulfillment, the musical aspect of things. So, you know, a night out at karaoke, night at the local pub, or, you know, playing the piano, playing the guitar, running for sure. As I mentioned, you know, if I. On days that I don’t run, I feel very odd, for sure. 

53:33
Lawrence
Anything to do with my learning as it pertains to languages right now, as well as my writing seeing progress. And I’ll be honest, the progress in the languages has been more like the. Has been more like the stock market rise and falls rather than an exponential curve upwards, which is what I was kind of hoping it would be on the ladder. 

53:53
Erin
So you’ve been learning patience. 

53:55
Lawrence
I have also been learning patience. And, you know, Actually, funny thing on that topic. You know, I, you know, I. Being patient and, you know, and being sort of attuned to my emotions and who I am, I think that also brings me fulfillment. I’ll give you a good example. My daughters once told me. They said, yeah, one of my daughters once told me, she said, yeah, you’re one of the most. You’re like one of the most patient people on earth. I’m just like, oh, you clearly don’t know who I am. Like, I never. 

54:22
Erin
Or you’re doing a really good job. 

54:24
Lawrence
Of holding that in some sort of facade. Absolutely. Yeah. But, yeah, so, like, you know, just being able to be present and be there and be sort of in. In control, like, you know, just trying to. Actually, I’ll just say I say this way because there’s no other better way to say it, like throwing the phone away, frankly, like, just like, get. Get the. Yeah, put the. Put the. Put the smartphone away. It’ll still be smart later. And. And you’ll be probably more smart for having put it away. And then you just. Just. You just. So, I mean, those are. Those are basically the. And travel, of course, I think, because part of the connecting and being with people is actually seeing them in their places. And, you know, I also. That includes traveling. Like, when friends come to see us. 

55:05
Lawrence
Like, right now we’ve got family in town. Like, so it’s. It’s. Yeah, just as you can tell, a lot of my fulfillment really revolves around people and music and. And the running bit as well as learning. So I think that’s. That’s. That’s really where it is. 

55:19
Erin
Yeah, I love it. So if you were to design the perfect week, and to be clear, the goal of this is not perfection. We build the equation as a statement of equilibrium, and then it offers. Offers us the opportunity to check in and see, you know, how we’re feeling relative to how we’re spending our time. And so it really is more of a prompt for a reflection and analysis and ultimately change. If you were to. If I was to give you blocks, like, say an hour per block for each of these, how many blocks in a week would you give to family? 

56:13
Lawrence
That’s tough to say because, like, I. I feel like it’s family’s like, the default. It’s like after the other blocks that I’ve actually put there, then it’s like every other spare block I’ve got goes to that. Right. So. 

56:25
Erin
Right. 

56:26
Lawrence
Yeah. 

56:26
Erin
Okay, well, let’s do the other ones first, then. So. 

56:29
Lawrence
Yeah. 

56:29
Erin
So how many blocks a Week would you give to friends? 

56:33
Lawrence
I would probably give between. I’m thinking, like, I’m even just thinking around some of my weeks because going back to the idea of. Of happiness, I am actually very happy and fulfilled in most of my weeks right now. So it’s like. Well, how. How would my. How would most of my weeks look like? It’s like. Yeah, you know, I do like, maybe three to five or six kind of thing. I’m thinking like a few lunches and like, one night out kind of thing. Yeah. 

56:55
Erin
Yeah. 

56:56
Lawrence
Okay. 

56:56
Erin
So like five for friends. 

56:58
Lawrence
Yeah, let’s do that. 

56:59
Erin
Okay. How about conversations? 

57:03
Lawrence
Yeah. And that could also include something like this, right? Or. Yeah. And I’m trying to think on my weeks. Yeah, I would say probably about. Again, four, maybe five. So. Yeah. Somewhere there. 

57:14
Erin
Okay. Music. 

57:17
Lawrence
That would at least be two blocks a week and probably like half an hour a day kind of thing. Just messing around on piano, etc. I would give it maybe three or four, because then you’ve also got. I. Well, because the friends plus the music kind of come together sometimes, right? 

57:34
Erin
That’s okay. 

57:35
Lawrence
Yeah. Yeah. 

57:35
Erin
Sometimes you can spend an hour doing something and you’re at actually like doing two blocks at the same time. The point of this is not productivity and efficiency. But that does happen, right? 

57:47
Lawrence
Of course. So, yeah, I’d give it. I’d give it four, maybe. Yeah. 

57:50
Erin
Okay. Running. 

57:52
Lawrence
That would get seven. 

57:53
Erin
I was gonna say. You said you did that every day. 

57:56
Lawrence
Every day. Drop my girls off and go for a run. 

57:59
Erin
Nice. Learning?

58:02
Lawrence
Yeah. So that would definitely be a full. Like. Right. Like, I would put, like, my current state is about 12. That would be like, classes. I would actually say 16, because I’m. I’m doing. And this is again, my sabbatical blocks. Right. So it’s like, I am definitely doing that, but plus all the writing that I’m doing as well. Right. 

58:22
Erin
So, yeah, that’s great. Travel is a funny one. You can’t kind of necessarily build that into a given week, but, you know. 

58:32
Lawrence
Yeah. But if I. If I did, I mean, like, you know, if. Averaged out over a year, I’d say probably like a day, a week kind of thing. So. Yeah. Yeah. 

58:40
Erin
And then in terms of family was. Sometimes what I do is I’ll just add a big block. So we could say like seven and we give it a capital F for family. And that just represents a big block of time. But is saying, you know, it’s really important that you have a good chunk of time every day with your spouse and your kids. 

58:59
Lawrence
Yep. Okay. Absolutely. 

59:00
Erin
I love it. So here’s your equation. Seven family plus five friends plus five conversations plus four music plus seven running plus 16, learning and travel. 

59:13
Lawrence
Yeah, there you go. 

59:15
Erin
Nice. So my next question, which is a new one, this is a little bit along the lines of what you were saying earlier about where are you going now? Is often a question that you ask when you’re connecting with people. So what is a dream that you have for yourself in 5 to 10 years and how do you trace that back to what’s in your equation today? 

59:42
Lawrence
Yeah, it’s great. I mean it’s. Well, I hope that I would have been able to achieve what I’ve set out to do with, with you know, my family, my little girls, my wife. I think that’s, that’s what, you know, occupies my mind space most of the time. You know, I, I do place a significant value in keeping in touch with friends. And, and I’m hoping, you know, tracing back to the equation that you know, that the time that I’m, I’ve put there is time that’s also going to stand as well instead and see us grow in our caring and our relationships and our friendships with each other. And then yeah, I think the rest of it, the big thing obviously is the learning, right. 

01:00:25
Lawrence
And out of the learning I’m hoping that I’ll be a lot more facile in the different languages that I’m tackling, that maybe in terms of my writing it will have gone somewhere beyond just sitting in my girls individual email inboxes. And so yeah, I think that’s sort of, and of course with the running and I run for health and also just to continue to, to clear my mind, I’m hoping that I will still find enjoyment of that and I’m hoping that you know, as we all get older, like you know, our bodies change and so I’m hoping that I’ll still also in 5 to 10 years be healthy enough to continue to exercise and work out every day because I really enjoy a great sweaty workout. 

01:01:08
Erin
That’s wonderful. Do you have time for a couple quick rapid fire questions as we finish off? 

01:01:14
Lawrence
Yeah. 

01:01:14
Erin
All right, here we go. Finish the sentence. Fulfillment is. 

01:01:20
Lawrence
Fulfillment is knowing that you’ve done your best and seeing it work out. 

01:01:24
Erin
Give me an example of a small moment of joy you had in the. 

01:01:27
Lawrence
Last 24 hours bringing paste de nata, which is the Portuguese egg tarts, home. And I, not only I was at the duty free and I thought to myself, it’s not just my girls that are going to like this. It’s some of our other friends in the neighborhood. So I brought them home and I did a little neighborhood drop off of pasde de nata with a few friends and family. And just being able to reconnect with them and see them after my trip was also gave me quite a bit of joy just to see that everyone’s still is. Like I was gone up for a week, but everyone’s still good. And now they’ve all got some egg tarts to show for it. 

01:02:00
Erin
That’s joy for you and for them. I love it. 

01:02:03
Lawrence
There you go. 

01:02:04
Erin
What is a book you read or a podcast you listened to that changed the way you think? 

01:02:10
Lawrence
Well, I can tell you this, like it’s actually just part of my course. So I, as part of my creative writing, I also took a screenwriting workshop and I read a book called Save the Cat, the last book on screenwriting you’ll ever need. And now I can’t watch movies the same way anymore because I know what the formula is like. I know exactly what’s going to happen, which is very frustrating. But yes, it has totally changed the way I watch TV and movies now, unfortunately. And by the way, if you’re wondering which shows we used it on, we watched Slow Horses on Apple tv. It’s great. My wife and I watched it and I’m just like, oh, I know exactly what’s happening next. So. Yeah, but it was. Yeah, it was pretty cool. 

01:02:45
Erin
That’s so funny in one sentence. What does freedom look like to you? 

01:02:51
Lawrence
Freedom basically is control over your own time and not needing to worry about finances and be able to spend it with loved ones, doing what you love. 

01:03:00
Erin
You’ve traveled a lot, so this one will be good for you. What is the coolest place you visited or one place you visited that exceeded your expectations? 

01:03:10
Lawrence
Coolest place that I’ve ever visited. That is a very difficult question. And obviously it excludes Malaysia because I lived there and I often exclude it for that reason. You know, I’d have to say Sri Lanka. You know, Sri Lanka, you know, was absolutely. I went there on a learning trip to see a palliative care program there. And the trip took place after the Easter Sunday attacks of a few years ago. I didn’t quite know what I was getting into, but just seeing how that just even being on the ground there in the wake of those attacks and still going on the tour really showed me. It taught me about resilience and just seeing how the community came together was incredibly inspiring. They came together, they were working together in the wake of everything that happened. And it was a real testament to human resilience. 

01:04:05
Lawrence
And it also helped that the food was amazing and it’s just a beautiful country. Country. So, yeah, that was. That was definitely one of the coolest places I’ve been, for sure. 

01:04:13
Erin
Oh, neat. What is something you do regularly to fill your own cup? 

01:04:19
Lawrence
You know, besides the running and the music? I would say that I am a wordle fan, so I do, I do. I do continue to play wordle. I sometimes stay up a little later than I would just so I can get it in at midnight, but. But it’s great. And I find it satisfying, especially obviously in the writing phase of my life, because it allows you to start seeing the way our words are constructed. Right. And some words look very interesting once they are deconstructed into five blocks. So, yeah, wordle for sure. Yeah. 

01:04:52
Erin
That’s awesome. Lawrence, thank you so much for being here today. I have learned so much from you today. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation and I’m just really grateful that we were able to spend the time together. Thank you. 

01:05:04
Lawrence
Well, I really appreciate you reaching out, Erin, and for the opportunity. And yeah, if this helps someone, I hope they can always reach out to me at my website as well, which is www.lawrencelohmd.com. But I’m looking forward to chatting more about the fulfillment equation in, you know, in the. In the time to come. So thank you so much for having me.