Charles Achampong on Worldwide Family Travel & The Power of The Pause

01:00
Erin
It was about stepping away from routine to reconnect and find what truly matters. When I read Charles’s thoughtfully written blogs, he talks about things that are so central to fulfillment. Things like using travel as a catalyst for personal growth, finding joy in the ordinary, and learning to beautifully color outside the lines. Charles has pulled his experiences and discoveries into a book called Around the World and Family that has just launched this past week. Today, I’m excited to hear all about Charles’s adventures, what he learned, and how it’s changed him. Then I want to go further. These things can sound amazing in theory, but where do you start? I’d like to dig into the details of exactly how you can make this happen. And of course, Charles and I are going touch on some of the fulfillment foundations, such as intuition and rewiring your brain. 

01:54
Erin
Today is all about the power of pausing. Welcome, Charles. 

01:59
Charles
Aaron, thank you very much for having me. Wow. I get excited and enthusiastic just listen to your introduction. I’m like, I want to meet that guy. It’s hard to believe that’s me. So thank you very much for the introduction, and it is a pleasure to be on your podcast. 

02:14
Erin
Thank you for being here. So take us back to the beginning. I’m curious about. Where did the spark of an idea come from? 

02:24
Charles
Yeah, you know, so what brought my spouse, Janice, and I together was our love for travel. Many things, but in particular, our love for travel. And so for us, the moment really hit us when we were on our honeymoon at the. At the foot, sort of the foundation of that Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where we traveled for our honeymoon. And we saw this elderly man who had what looked like to be an oxygen tank in tow, slowly making his way up the escalation escalator, up the stairs to get to the foot of the Christ the Redeemer statue. And so we both saw it at different times. I had seen this individual, I didn’t think Janice had seen this individual, and vice versa. 

03:04
Charles
And so later over dinner, Janice and I had reflected on what we had witnessed and just kind of this idea, our love for travel and the fact that it’s very much a privilege and that we shouldn’t take it for granted. And then sort of over dessert, she’s like, you know, I would love to take our future kids on a trip around the world, saying we shouldn’t wait until it’s too late. Of course, my initial reaction was like, is she crazy? Like is she absolutely nuts. Partly because, like, first of all, we’re newlyweds, we’re enjoying Rio de Janeiro. We’ve not even finished paying for this trip yet, and we’re already talking about this global adventure that we want to hypothetically take our kids to, you know, that we don’t even have yet. So it was a bit surreal to hear her say that. 

03:46
Charles
But, you know, I think deep down inside I realized she was on to something. You know, I think she was the one that really planted that seed for us to be able to share this idea or what brought us together, travel with our family as well. And honestly, I’m forever grateful to her for the fact that looking back, we didn’t let the practicalities of the moment overshadow this dream. And for me, so that transformation really took place when we returned and we set sort of in motion this idea of us taking an extended period of time off at our honeymoon with our future family. And we’re fortunate that were able to do so. 

04:25
Erin
See, you set that intention early and I love it. Like, that’s a nice long term dream. I can imagine as life progresses, there being all sorts of reasons why you might keep moving the milestone on that dream. What was the trigger that led you to say, okay, now’s the moment? 

04:47
Charles
Yeah, so, I mean, there were sort of the tactics and the overall strategy. So this overall strategy of us wanting to make sure that we are able to enjoy this future trip with our kids when they’re the age that they’d be able to remember the experience and remember the details of the experience as well. But life happens. So you set that vision, I guess, 10 plus, almost 15 years ago when we got married. And of course life happens along the way. You know, personal circumstances take place. You think about you know, different career changes. Living in Toronto can be pricey and expensive. Things come in the way to kind of derail you from those plans. But I think for us, like many people, the pandemic really changed. 

05:28
Charles
Our thinking around life is short and you need to really experience the moment when you see the impact of what the virus had done to so many people in so many people’s lives. And the fact that we felt very fortunate and grateful to have our health, you know, to have our extended family, you know, persevere through the experience. We just realized that even though we were all in tight and close quarters over a long period of time, we just realized, like, we need to do this. We need to, you know, once the world opens up, we need to see the world. And so for us, that was sort of the catalyst to say we’re going to continue and we’re going to persevere and go on. 

06:02
Charles
I’ll be honest with you, to be fully transparent, I was disillusioned, like, there’s no way during the height of the pandemic, where are we going? No one’s going anywhere. It’s hard to see the forest from the streets. You often think that in your worst situations that things won’t get better and vice versa. But I like full credit to my spouse who’s like, don’t worry, things will change, things will get better. We need something to look forward to. And so she was really pivotal in saying, you know, we are going to pursue this trip. Once we get through this, we’re going to put the plans in motion to actually pursue this trip around the world. And I think the last thing I’ll say is that, you know, I’m very grateful for the fact that we didn’t put all our eggs in one basket. 

06:40
Charles
This was a long term plan over 10 and 15 year period. So we still wanted to make sure that were able to put those moments of joy and those pauses, you know, regularly is something that was sort of infused as part of our regular day to day life. And so it wasn’t like we had, you know, scrimped and saved and said that weren’t going to do anything for the next 10, 15 years so that we could pursue this opportunity. We had given ourselves a rough timeline and wanted to make sure that we continue to enjoy life as well, but that was it really. The pandemic and our kids getting to an age of which they would be able to remember the detail and the experience. 

07:12
Erin
Amazing. So for context and inspiration, I was hoping that you could walk us through each of the locations along the way and maybe you can pick a highlight from each location to share with us. 

07:28
Charles
Sure, sure. Yeah. So it was a challenge. You know, we’ve gotten a certain period of time, so seven or eight months we are traveling around the world. And of course you want to see everything and you want to go everywhere but a budget and the time all kind of rear its ugly head. And you have be pragmatic, but also realistic, but also sort of forward thinking in terms of dreaming about the places you want to go to. So there’s a couple of criteria that we had used. You know, our family model for the trip was that, you know, sun’s out, fun’s out, this idea that, you know, we wanted to make sure that were going to chase the warm weather around the globe. So we really wanted to leave behind our winter coats and winter boots for flip flops and sunscreen. 

08:08
Charles
So that was the main criteria. Everywhere we traveled to would be a warm destination for the most part. We wanted to make it family first. And so we wanted to make sure that were able to connect the dots between where our relatives were worldwide. You know, there’s nothing better than family drama, I guess, in multiple time zones. So we had to make sure we checked that box off as well. So everywhere from, you know, seeing my parents in Ghana to my sibling in London and seeing my in-laws at west in Saskatchewan and Canada, it was, you know, basically a very expensive family reunion in some ways. So we tried to follow that as another criteria. We picked places that we had been before and places that we hadn’t been before. And so that was one piece as well. 

08:48
Charles
Well, it was a mix of googling it and where is that? So a balance of tourist hotspots like Australia, where people spend a lot of time, and places where, you know, places that would make our friends kind of say, you know, you’re going where, which was kind of Albania as well. So, you know, we picked a number of random places. So we started moving westward and we spent about a month in Australia and New Zealand, which was really on our bucket list forever. And we’re conveniently close to each other. And I think about Australia and I think about our experience there and you know, being able to swim in the, and go snorkeling and diving in the Great Barrier Reef was definitely a highlight for all of us and really blew us away. 

09:27
Charles
Being able to see, you know, the colors of the fish and such vivid, you know, such a vivid sort of depiction of these fish, sort of Swimming around you and going about their business and being able to be right there in the middle of the Pacific Ocean was very surreal. In New Zealand also, you know, a highlight there was not only the geography or the scenery of New Zealand, but being able to meet my spouse’s grandmother’s good friend that she had met some 30 years ago on a bus tour. And who would have imagined, I mean, she’s since passed away, our grandma, but who would have imagined that my kid’s great grandmother would be able to meet her, you know, her best friend in New Zealand and all these years later get a chance to spend time with her. 

10:07
Charles
So there, you know, it was just so. And she was, you know, 80 plus, full of energy, so excited, so enthusiastic, such a champion of what we were doing. And she just a great experience there in New Zealand with her. In addition to everything else that we did there in New Zealand, Thailand as well. We continue to move. Spent a month there. It was a bit of a nostalgic return for Janice and I, where we had spent four to six weeks about 15 years ago. But this time we decided to spend time with our kids in tow. And it was kind of like rewatching your old favorite movie. By this time we had live commentary from our two very opinionated critics, our kids, in terms of what we should see and do. So that was a lot of fun. 

10:45
Charles
And in Thailand, you know, there’s so much there, you know, that I think about our family Muay Thai class that we took, which was absolutely surreal. So Muay Thai is kind of Thai boxing where you get to lose your legs and all your different body parts to tackle your opponent. And I thought it was going to be a very simple, innocuous kind of family fun exercise. And we get in there and it is the most intense workout, you know, that I’ve done in a very long time. And we’re all in there sweaty, you know, boxing with other families, it was very intense. And so that was a very surreal experience in Thailand, the Philippines as well was for me a beautiful surprise. The highlight for me there was the people just so hospitable, so kind, so genuine. 

11:33
Charles
You know, I could have just sat and talked to random Filipinos all day because it was just. They’re just so easy going, just an appreciation for the simple things in life. Many Filipino friends here, and they’re so kind and warm hearted. But to go to the Philippines itself was just, you know, just a beautiful surprise in terms of the friendliness and the engagement of the people there. So that for me, was sort of the hidden gem of Asia that not many people know about. We then ventured on to South Africa because who really doesn’t want to see the Lion King come to life? And so that was surreal in terms of our safari. That was definitely a major hit for us. 

12:07
Charles
And the kids adventuring in Kruger national park and spending four days, three nights there and seeing all the big five animals in the first 24 hours. And, you know, people come from all over to come see these animals, and it’s very difficult to see the big five animals there. And the fact that we saw it in the first 24 hours was sort of surreal. It got to the point of where the kids would then, you know, they’d say, well, can we see a lion eating a. An elephant? They start putting in as if it was some sort of order that they could put in and magically see it. So the fact that we were able to see everything in the first 24 hours in South Africa was surreal. And then went to Ghana. 

12:41
Charles
So my parents spend Canadian winters in Ghana, which is on the west coast of Africa, and we had a bit of a family reunion there. So having my parents, my mom and dad, and of course, my own immediate family, my girls and Janice and then my siblings there with extended family was a highlight for me. Spending Father’s Day in Ghana with my dad, who, you know, I don’t get a chance to see as often as I should. And being able to spend Father’s Day there with him in Ghana was a highlight. And having us all be together in one room and just kind of pausing and taking it all night, knowing that these opportunities are so rare as well. So that was a key highlight for us in Ghana. And then we continued on to Jordan. 

13:18
Charles
We spent a month there, and, you know, Jordan was very interesting. It was not one that was at the top of my list. Janice really wanted to see it and go other than the Dead Sea and being able to float in the Dead Sea was. I didn’t know much about Jordan and its history there, but, wow, talk about a very captivating country in a very, you know, hot and volatile area. We were very reluctant to go there in the first place because of the situation in the Middle east being very volatile to begin with. But we did our research beforehand, and everything looked safe and good to go, and we had a blast. I think the highlight there was spending the night in the Arabian desert in a place called Wadi Rum. It is a very unique place. 

13:55
Charles
You know, many movies have been filmed there. Lawrence of Arabia to the Martian, because of its red clay and sand that is there on the ground. And it is a beautiful place. So we spent a couple nights camping out in the desert in Wadi Rum. You know, just surreal to see the crystal clear constellations, the stars, There is no light pollution. You know, we are there with the Bedouins, you know, the locals who’ve been there for thousands of years, their history there just. And to sleep in a cave as well. So this cave comes, you know, it covers about 60% of your outdoor living space. And then you, it’s essentially lying on a cot and just staring into the skies, into the heavens. 

14:38
Charles
And it’s just, it one of those few things, you know, travel becomes so democratized and it, you know, it’s very difficult to get those unique experiences. And this by far was without a doubt one of the top three experiences I think I have experienced in my life. Being able to spend the night in Wadi Rum in a cave in the Arabian desert and looking at this, the shooting stars. So that was itself extremely beautiful. And then we wrapped up our trip in Albania. This is maybe the, perhaps the most entertaining random selection, literally chosen by staring at a map of Europe and finding it, looking up a few photos and videos and thinking, well, that looks nice, let’s go there. And so people tend to go to Croatia or Montenegro or anywhere along the Adriatic, Ionian coast. 

15:23
Charles
But for me, Albania was Europe’s best kept secret. Beautiful in terms of the people, the food, the scenery, very inexpensive. Even the Albanians were wondering, like, what are you doing here? You just, you chose Albania, Why? Right. And so it was great to be in a country that is not overrun by tourists and to be there before the tourists beyond sort of Albania and Europe. Find out and learn more about the country and venture there for vacation. So yeah, that was our trip there. And then we spent a few days in the UK to see some family and then to wrap up in Saskatchewan before returning home to Toronto. So it was a fascinating journey and experience. Yeah. 

16:05
Erin
Wow. I think it’s so interesting that you were able to spend a decent amount of time in each location because I can imagine putting together a whirlwind trip like this where you’re moving, you know, instead of a month in an area, it’s a week or a few days. But what was the value you found in allowing yourself to stay in places a little bit longer? 

16:29
Charles
Yeah, we’re strong believers in less is more. You know, this. First of all, we don’t have a car here in Toronto. So the fact that we spent more time traveling in a vehicle during this trip versus, you know, our regular day to day life here in Toronto was a bit daunting for us and for the kids. And so we just realized like, we want to get a sense or an understanding of what is actually going on in that particular city or in that country. Like if you really want to get a sense of who the people are, what the culture is like, I love going into a place and them getting the sense of getting to know who we were. So we’re not just kind of flies on the wall. We spend some time enjoying and understanding the culture, the language, the people. 

17:11
Charles
Kind of really just integrating ourselves as much as we can into each place and getting to know the place so that we could begin to form some personal relationships with these people. And there are many places where we still keep in touch with some of the people that we met along the way. Because we spent so much time in so few places, we touched the surface. For us, it’s not important to be able to go to a particular country and check off all of the tourist boxes of places that you need to see. We choose an area, we go deep in that area and spend as much time and it gives us an opportunity to go back again sometime in the future. So yeah, less is more for us. 

17:43
Charles
And that was really the motto of our overall trip and really our approach in terms of how we selected different places to go to. 

17:49
Erin
Yeah. Oh, I love that philosophy. I also really like how you shared that you had these central criteria, these core criteria that you had defined before you went about the task of picking where to go and that really helped guide you in the selection. And I mean, it probably also made it easier to pack because your first criteria being warm places meant that you didn’t have to bring clothes for all seasons. 

18:15
Charles
That’s right, yeah. Yeah. Simple was more. I mean, for us, everyone was allowed to bring one carry on suitcase and one backpack and that was it. So we really had to be diligent about saying, is this the piece of clothing that you want to take? Is it versatile, can be washed easily, can be dried easily? All the practical things you have to think about, but. And then you realize, like, wow, you leave all these things behind and it helps that you’re in a warm destination, but you realize all the things that you have in your life that you really don’t need. Right. Everything our entire life was being carried around in our carry on suitcase and in our backpack. 

18:51
Charles
So made it much more seamless in terms of traveling and easier to get from place to place as we are making our way around the world. World? Yeah. 

18:59
Erin
Amazing. Okay, so you’ve sold me on this idea of going around the world. What now? How do I approach the details of planning and how do it in a way that’s affordable for a family? 

19:14
Charles
Yeah, I mean, everyone has their own sort of criteria, sort of litmus test in terms of what they want. So what I would consider as interesting or sort of experiential is different from another family. So it’s very sort of subjective for us. We kind of created a bit of a 10 year, let’s say serendipitously there was intention that was there, but a ten year sort of money game plan, you know, that started with a dedicated savings account all the way back to, you know, the time when we had the conversation over our honeymoon. And I think it was powered by several clever moves for us anyhow, and it worked for us. You know, the fact that we don’t have a vehicle saved us a considerable amount of money. So our kids have learned to walk everywhere in our neighborhood or take transit. 

19:52
Charles
If anything, we’ve gotten to know the community very well because they’ve seen the kids from, you know, being pushed in strollers to now walking on their own through the neighborhood. So not having a car saved us a lot of money. We’ve also minimized on the amount of activities that our kids are involved in from an extracurricular perspective. Right. So each child is allowed one after school activity and it just minimizes the amount of back and forth of getting people from point A to point B. So that also saves us a lot of money too. We are very fortunate to live in our starter home. So, you know, at the time we had thought maybe we would use our current home as a base to be able to move into a much bigger home. 

20:26
Charles
But instead of upgrading, we decided to make the key renovations we need to make in our existing home. And our starter home has now become our permanent home. And that has helped us a lot as well. And we touched a bit on the pandemic as well. And so were very fortunate and grateful to be healthy and safe through the pandemic. But I mean, if there was any sort of benefit to the pandemic in our case is that we accidentally became a sort of unexpected savings booster for us. So, you know, the fact that we weren’t able to spend money, see anybody, were both gainfully employed working from home, our expenses were minimal. We put the additional savings into our savings account for the trip and that helped significantly as well. I’ve been very fortunate too. 

21:10
Charles
Throughout my career, I’ve traveled internationally a lot, which meant that we got to play the points game, sort of this loyalty points game like pros. And so were able to turn this whole family into sort of points collecting ninjas. So even from my very young age, our kids were on planes at age 2 months each of them. And so we signed up for the loyalty program and you know, through strategic credit card use and leveraging sort of the family sharing features of the Air Canada Aeroplan program, were able to cover 75% of our costs through, yeah, through flight. So, you know, we kind of did the budget and you know, it was about $100,000 we would have spent in travel costs and flight costs alone. 

21:51
Charles
And so the fact that we only paid 25 grand for all four of us to travel around the world was a significant saving through points as well. And right. The cherry on top was the free airport lounge access, meaning we got to avoid all those $17 airport sandwiches that, you know, you never have or even though you pack snacks for the kids. So we got to enjoy that sort of opportunity too. We were able to rent out our house. This is something that went back and forth on before we left for their trip. 

22:16
Charles
So we rented out our house before we left on the trip and I was a bit nervous, you know, kind of back and forth whether we want to just, you know, have friends and family check the house while we were gone or whether we actually wanted someone living in the house as well. And so that turned into a secret money making machine in terms of, you know, turning our house into an accidental ATM by renting it out to neighbors down the street who happened to need it during the exact period of time that we were leaving. So they were doing a major renovation as well. And you know, amazing. You know, when the universe, you put it out there, the universe, you know, wants you to do these things, you pursue that. 

22:50
Charles
And it was exactly the dates that were traveling the six or seven months were gone. They came in, you know, we put a sign out in front. 24 hours later, they were knocking on the door, they took a look, they were in here for 30 seconds, said, this will work. This will allow them to be able to keep on top of their renovations. And because they’re about to sign an offer for a place that was much further away from where they are living, from, away from where we are in the city and so that worked out beautifully. They took great care of the house and yeah, that worked out well. And, you know, I think the last piece is that we tried to book everything as early as possible. So. 

23:23
Erin
Right. 

23:23
Charles
You know, the early bird gets the worm type of thing. And so as soon as the window opened up for us to make the booking for flights or for accommodations, you name it. It wasn’t so much about being organized. It was more about sort of snaking the better deals, using fewer points, you know, and I mean, the downside, it gave us a solid year of second guessing every decision that we made in terms of whether we wanted to do that or not or go to that particular place. But once you locked it in a year in advance, it meant that were going. So. So, yeah, these are some of the sort of things that worked for us in terms of being able to do it. 

23:56
Charles
The big thing for us was that we wanted to have the break, the pause, we wanted to travel to these particular places and were fortunate enough to be able to put these things into place over a 10 year span to be able to allow us to save the money to be able to plan for this trip. Yeah, those are some of the things that work from our perspective. 

24:13
Erin
Did you have any strategies around finding locations with respect to accommodation? 

24:21
Charles
So I think, you know, major cities made it very easy. Airbnb was our go to. We wanted to have as much space to be able to spread out as possible. Every now and then we book a hotel because there’s nothing that beats having, you know, sort of a free continental breakfast and the pool for the kids to jump into when we just need to have some outdoor time as well. So it was a mixture of Airbnb hotels and some of those unique cultural experiences of camping out in the Arabian desert too. So I think I’d say about 80% of it was Airbnb and the other maybe 10 or 15% were hotels. And the remaining, some of those unique experiences too. 

24:56
Charles
So we tried to find places that were close to transit to mimic the sort of lifestyle that we had in Toronto that we could walk to without having to need a car to rent. So it was a bit of a balance of not being too far outside of the location that we were in, but also being close enough to transit that we can make our way around a particular city or a particular location as well. And then we sometimes along the way also were able to spend time with family and friends, which also helped too, in terms of spending time catching up with them and enjoying whatever destination we happen to be in at that time. 

25:27
Erin
Amazing. 

25:28
Charles
Yeah. 

25:28
Erin
Okay, now I feel like I know how to do this. So if you transport yourself back to before you left, what were you hoping to get out of this pause in life? Did you find it? And what else did you discover unexpectedly along the way? 

25:45
Charles
Oh, great question. So I think a couple things come to mind. One is that I wanted us to begin to build a life that we didn’t need a vacation from. So as much as we were able to take this period of time, I was hoping that there were things that we could learn as a family that we could infuse into our day to day living and sort of life after we returned back from the trip. So that was one piece. I think the other piece was I really wanted my kids to get an appreciation of what life was like outside their four walls. Right. They’ve lived in a bit of a cocoon. They have a very comfortable life. We have a very comfortable life. And so I wanted to expose them to other people, other cultures, other way of doing things. 

26:28
Charles
And I wanted them to, you know, whatever they decide to pursue in their life, to remember the experience of us spending it together as a family, but also just to expose them to the broader wider world around us as well. I wanted some time to reflect, to pause. Right. It was a very expensive trip to be able to, you know, to pause. You can, you know, there are different sort of micro macro pauses. But I really wanted the time to just not have any responsibility to be able to spend time with my kids, to watch them, to get to know them better. Because I felt in many ways we were kind of to these two ships passing in the night. And so we often get to get a chance to. To spend. Spend quality time together. 

27:04
Charles
No, it’s one thing to spend quality time together with your kids and you’re not there being present, but to actually just to sit, look at them, take it all in, ask them questions, engage with them, spend more. And I want to spend more one on one time with each of them. So I think one of the things that we realized before going is that we always tend to travel as a tribe. Everywhere I went, it was always the four of us. And I felt that we know when we divided and conquered, when we were able to spend time with, you know, with one, my two girls, with each of them, it made for a much better adventure, much better day in terms of the engagement that we would have with them as well. 

27:37
Charles
So, you know, being able to spend more quality time with the family, having more time to think about what do I want to do with the second half of my life? I’m 45, almost 46, and, you know, if everything works according to plan, you know, you’re there for another 40 to 50 years or whatever it may be. And I just. It gave me some time to reflect on what it is that I want to achieve as an individual. You know, I wanted to develop a much better relationship with my spouse, you know, and being able to be much more of a better listener. But I also wanted just to let go. Like, I didn’t want this trip to be the panacea to all our problems. 

28:11
Charles
I knew it wasn’t going to fix everything, you know, or, you know, address all my crazy antics, idiosyncrasies that we each all have. Right. I want us to just enjoy the time that we had together and to be able to be, you know. Yeah, just enjoy the time that we had together and to spend as much time as we could together and to be able to have much more of an appreciation of the environment around us. The geopolitics that are going on, they have much. My kids have much more of an appreciation or understanding of the broader world. And I enjoy our conversations around the dinner table now about places that we’ve been to and to hear their feedback. Oh, you know, they mentioned this particular country. I remember that we did this. Oh, it’s very interesting. 

28:49
Charles
You know, and I think all those things, an appreciation for the world. I wanted them to be much more worldly and knowing that there’s a much bigger world out there beyond Toronto, beyond Canada, beyond sort of the Western world. So I think we were able to achieve some of those things. 

29:06
Erin
Amazing. 

29:06
Charles
Yeah. 

29:07
Erin
And what did you find that you discovered unexpectedly? Something that you hadn’t thought before you left that you might benefit or grow from or learn along the way? 

29:19
Charles
I guess a couple things. I think the main thing is that we actually enjoy each other’s company as a family. 

29:24
Erin
Well, that’s good. It’s good. 

29:26
Charles
Yeah. You know, most people just kind of. I say that, but I think most families, you just kind of go through the motions. Right. And you’re just there because you’re family, you’re supposed to be together. But I’m like, oh, we actually. Yes, we enjoy our individual time, but we actually enjoy each other’s company. We. We. We rub off on each other, we laugh at each other, we get upset at each other. You know, we enjoy our quiet time away from each other. But I’m like, oh, we actually, I thought that when we returned from this trip that we would, were like, okay, seven or eight months of spending all this time together. Now we can go back to, you know, life as we knew the way it was before. But I’m like, oh, we actually genuinely enjoy each other’s company. 

30:03
Charles
We actually really love each other. I love, it’s great. And I think that was one piece and the other piece is just. I’m like, oh, I feel like I’ve gotten to know each member of my family, my spouse, each of my daughters in a much better way. Like, I, I realize how my oldest, Cassie, is much more of an older soul than I recall. Right. She’s just much more intuitive. She’s, she’s very astute, very much an observer, you know, asks great questions. My youngest, she’s far more engaging. She’s far more of an extrovert. She’s always curious as well. And just to even watch the physical growth and the sort of their own maturity around over the trip, it’s just, I’ve enjoyed that. Like, I don’t think I would have. 

30:44
Charles
I didn’t appreciate that when we were home because we just kind of go through the motions, you know, you want to get them out the door, get something to eat, get them out there for school, right? Or get them to the right activity after school, okay, let’s have dinner. We get through our homework. Okay. Then it’s always the next thing of, you know, it’s, let’s get them to bed, let’s get them the next day. It’s, we’re always thinking ahead, and I was never present or in the moment. And the trip really just allowed me to be. Take a deep breath and just sit and watch. There are oftentimes I would just look at them and they were kind of like, you know, like, daddy, why are you looking at us like that? 

31:14
Charles
I’m like, I just, I can’t believe that you used to be my babies and now here you are as pre teens with your own attitudes and your own beliefs and your own preferences. I mean, you know that intuitively that this is what’s going to happen when you actually see it. I’m like, wow, it just seems like yesterday you got here all right. I just look at my spouse. I’m like, you know, this was all your idea. Can you imagine? Do you remember when we talked. She goes, of course. You doubted me every step of the way. I’m like, I know, I know. I just, I just. I thank her as usual. She’s right. I thank her for the fact that, oh, if it wasn’t for this idea, we would never have pursued this. 

31:46
Charles
I would have never done this on my own at all. Oh, my gosh, no. And so it’s. Those are the things. Yeah. 

31:52
Erin
I am observing how. And we kind of kicked this off as saying we were gonna really dig into the power of pause, but I’m observing how the intentionality behind the bigger pause has also led you to what you’re just describing as all these micro pauses. 

32:14
Charles
Completely like this. This idea of the power of pausing is. It took me a long time to recognize that before. Like, you know, they’re the micro pauses, the 30 second pauses where something happens, I’m going to react, then just remind myself to take a deep breath and just relax. How do I want to respond to the situation? You know, there’s the time I would have in between meetings, you know, being able to have times going for a walk so I can just collect my thoughts. And then there’s this major pause. This I’ve. I’ve appreciated. I’m much more. I’m much more reflective. I’m a bit. I’m much more spiritual in terms of what the universe has done for me. Pausing has. Has enabled me to be much more gracious. I have much more gratitude for the things I have as well.

33:00
Charles
I recognize I’ve always known how privileged and fortunate I am, but this trip just allowed me to realize, like, wow, I’ve. I’ve had such a great life and great experience that no one will be able to take away from me as well. And so it’s been such a. It’s been such a joy to be able to have that time to rest and to reflect and to figure out what, you know, how I build on that and how we make this an everyday occurrence and not just a one off that has changed our approach to life. And if anything, you know, the thing that excites me the most is that I feel like it’s given other people permission to think about what their pause is as well. 

33:34
Charles
And it may not necessarily be a trip, but it’s almost like we’ve almost in some ways normalized this idea of being able to take time off. I feel. So maybe it’s good for my ego, I don’t know. But I feel so happy when I hear other people come up to me and say, no, you’ve made us think about. You’ve changed it. I got a note yesterday. You’ve changed the nature of our conversations around the dinner table now in terms of what we think is possible. And I’m like, that for me, is. That’s enough. Like, I would never think like me? changing that? No way, you know? I know, but when I hear people say that makes me feel so happy, so excited. Just the fact that I had the. The opportunity and the power to be able to help influence that is very unique. 

34:13
Charles
Yeah. 

34:14
Erin
That’s amazing. And it sounds like pausing is almost a bit of a practiced thing. I wonder if you got into the practice of it in, you know, in your big pause, but you’re also practicing it throughout that. And then you get back and you can find yourself in these moments of pause, appreciating your growing daughters, appreciating your wife, appreciating a break between meetings. 

34:38
Charles
This idea of, you know, I was thinking about it the other day. We spend so much time focusing on our outer self, right. In the morning, we shave, take a shower, put on makeup. You go through your routine, do your hair. We spend the time that we spend on our outer stuff, but very few of us actually spend time on our inner self. Whatever your inner self needs, whether it be through meditating, through prayer, through journaling, through whatever. You’re like, feeding your inner self. And I think that’s part of the challenge that we have, is that we’re so focused on what our outer appearance looks like that we don’t spend that time on focusing on what our inner self needs as well. And it’s got to be a bit of a balance, right? 

35:15
Charles
When we pause, we give ourselves permission to reflect, reset, realign with what truly matters to you. And so I think if there’s anything I want people to get out of this, it’s the fact that not only do you need to focus on your outer stuff, but you also need to focus on your inner self as well. 

35:32
Erin
So you shared with me once a phrase that had been passed on to you, and it stuck in my mind, Charles. So now we have to talk about it. 

35:41
Charles
Sure. 

35:43
Erin
It’s that your ego is not your amigo. 

35:46
Charles
Oh, yes. 

35:47
Erin
Do you remember telling me this? 

35:48
Charles
I do remember telling you that, yes. 

35:49
Erin
Okay, so talk more about this. What’s this all about? 

35:53
Charles
We all have an ego in many ways. It’s your inner voice, and it’s the fact that. But for me personally, I let it get in the way of my destiny or my potential. You know, it’s being able to think with your heart and not with your head. You know, not letting little things bother you. Not letting you know people’s transgressions bother you, ingratiate you, or not letting your ego take control of what your heart really wants to do. I think about my career. I’ve had such a formidable and enjoyable career. And you know, in many ways, as you go look at a career, you want to be able to have that upward trajectory. Right. But in some cases, you sometimes do these things. 

36:31
Charles
Is one of my favorite quotes is don’t make the mistake of becoming good at something you hate or dislike or are not passionate about. And I think so many of us do that we make this mistake of, you know, either society tells you’re good at it, so you need to continue. Your ego tells you’re good at it because it validates for you. These things are important that society has told you the trappings of success and wealth and all that. But in many cases, there are things that we all intimately know that we enjoy. Things that our heart tells us that we really are good at are things that we enjoy. 

37:03
Charles
And we kind of push it to the side because it’s not practical, it’s not what others will look to us for, you know, and so if anything, you know, our ego gets in the way of what our true potential is or what we really enjoy as individuals. And so for me, when I say that our ego is not our amigo, it’s being able to think more with your heart and not with your head. You know what the right way or the path is, you know, what you really want to do. But because society or you’ve convinced your ego yourself has kind of defined or dictated for you what is important. Right. But I think deep down inside we all know the things that bring us joy. 

37:38
Charles
And it’s being able to pursue those things and thinking with your hearts when you’re making a decision, as opposed to always with your head, which is so different from how we’re accustomed to living as individuals. 

37:49
Erin
Yeah. And it’s hard because you’re getting all those pats on the back for the thing that you don’t love doing. 

37:55
Charles
Exactly. 

37:56
Erin
It feels good because you’re getting that recognition for that. Yeah, totally. 

38:01
Charles
Yes, yes. And who doesn’t like that? Right. Who doesn’t like being pat on the back? Who doesn’t like being told that what they’re doing is amazing. And it, you know, as that happens, you know, you again, don’t make that mistake of becoming good at something you dislike or hate. And you know, and so that’s what happens. And you end up continuing to do that. And you realize, you look back on life, you feel like, huh, I really wanted to do that thing. But because everyone told me I was doing such a great job on this particular thing, that I just continued doing it because it provided me with the wealth I was looking for. You know, may have made me rich financially, but for my soul didn’t really fulfill me. 

38:31
Erin
Yeah, right. You’ve described yourself as someone who loves to live in black and white. What have you learned about living in gray? And as you describe beautifully coloring outside. 

38:42
Charles
It’s one thing to be able to plan for this trip, but if you had gone back and asked me if we were ever going to do this, I would have said no. You know, even though we had planned and schemed and saved and created a life for us to be able to do this, you know, if you were to go back to my past self and say, this is exactly what you’re going to end up doing, I would have thought, no way. Your crystal ball has a typo. There’s no way that is even feasible. No, it’s. So I grew up in the world and in a family that was pretty. 

39:08
Charles
I didn’t say black and white, but were, you know, you knew which lane that you need to be in, you know, and so if anything, this idea of being able to spend time with my family, traveling, just. I enjoy. I realize how much. How much more fulfilled I am coloring outside the lines. Right. And how we’re all required and forced to kind of adhere to the status quo and we’re rewarded for maintaining the status quo. But you just realize, like, but life is short, you know, as sort of cliche as that sounds, the fun and excitement is being able to do things differently and being able to color outside the lines and realizing, like, well, there are so many other successful examples of people who’ve decided to do things differently, to mix things up a little bit. 

39:53
Charles
And the joy and excitement and enthusiasm they have is surreal. And so for me, this idea of coloring outside the lines, it brings me such joy and excitement and enthusiasm. It really fills me. And I would never have thought that it was possible to have a life that allowed you to color outside the lines, do things differently. And so I hope that our example is sort of a testimony to say that, you know what, there is more than one path to happiness or to be able to pursue whatever your happiness is. 

40:20
Charles
I cringe when I see that people look back on life and just kind of like, oh, wow, you know, I wish I had done this or that, you know, the regrets piece and someone had recommended to me, you know, you should go to an old folks home and go and speak to them and just learn a little bit more about their life and the things that they wish they had done and, you know, not taken advantage of and how life kind of influenced them or how, you know, when other people rely on other things or other individuals for their own happiness as opposed to themselves, that saddens me. There’s a lot of joy doing things differently in life. 

40:52
Erin
Yeah. You can really see the personal growth journey that you’ve been on as we’re having this conversation, and I’m just so grateful for you sharing it with us. I also love what you said about looking to the older generation as well, because I think that we don’t listen enough to our wise elders. You know, we’re kind of in a culture that really celebrates youth and there is absolutely. There’s great insights in listening to all of the energy and ideas that are coming out of a younger generation. And what can we learn from these generations of folks that have more life experience than us. 

41:34
Erin
Us, because that is so insightful in reflecting on our own situations and what changes can we make in our lives now so that, you know, in 20 years when we’re talking about the things that we valued most in life, what brought us most fulfillment that we had the opportunity to do those things? 

41:52
Charles
I, I agree. I. There’s an older gentleman who’s just recently passed away. One of our neighbors here has been in the neighborhood for about 60 or 70 years. And I would just enjoy sitting on his front porch just chatting with him. The stories were always the same to the point where I could probably tell them verbatim. But I just, the happiness and the glint in his eye that he had in telling those stories or what the neighborhood used to be back in its heyday or in the past, and listening to his own lived experience and journey to Canada. I love speaking to the elderly. I just, I just, I enjoyed their stories. Right. There’s so much that you can learn from their experience and you just realize, like, oh, we’re all in the same boat. 

42:26
Charles
They also had their own trials and tribulations and upheavals, but they’ve persevered. Right. And it’s. Yeah, I enjoy hearing from them to remind me of the fact that, oh, you really have to enjoy the moment and really pursue your own path to be able to pursue whatever happiness is for you. Yeah. 

42:43
Erin
Amazing. Let’s build your equation. 

42:45
Charles
Okay. Yeah. 

42:48
Erin
All right. So we’re going to start by exploring the things that you love to do in a given week. If you could design your week any way you wanted to so that you had, you know, all the things that bring you fulfillment, what would you put in it? 

43:04
Charles
So definitely being active and exercising, whether it be walking or running or playing any kind of sports, basketball, tennis, something that keeps me active and exercising. So that’s a very important component. I think the other piece is even just being outdoors is very important for me. There’s a ravine that’s not too far from us. This idea of this forest bathing idea or concept of being able to spend time in the forest and just cleansing yourself and reinvigorating yourself and being there and getting sort of being exposed to nature is very important to me. Running through the ravine on my bike or for a walk is very important. So I think that’s another component. Music. That’s also very important, being able to listen to music. I grew up, my dad, he really kind of influenced me in sort of the oldies kind of music. 

43:52
Charles
50s, 60s, 70s, Motown. Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, I, I, I love that stuff, and so I listen to it every day. So that’s the type of thing that kind of fills my cup as well. The weather, sunshine, vitamin D, the warmth, meaning I enjoy that. That’s very important to me. Spending time, definitely with my kids and my wife, very important to me as well. And chatting with my neighbors and spending time with my friends, all very important, very key for me. Those are the things I think I find a lot of joy in as well. And I think the last piece would probably be some sort of, like, mentorship. I enjoy that too. 

44:33
Charles
Being able to support or help out another some way, shape or fashion with the next generation, whether it be, you know, depending on what it is that they want to do. Being able to share my own lived experience with them as well, so that they might learn from that too. So those are all things that I typically enjoy doing. Actually, there’s one more. The other piece is volunteering. And so a big component for me is being able to give back. 

44:56
Charles
I’m going to be volunteering soon at a school just down the street from us in terms of helping young kids, grade one and grade two students learning how to read, so improving their reading ability, which is, again, it’s in my heart, something I would enjoy, I know I’m going to enjoy doing, but very different from what I would have done in the past where I spent a lot of time Because I think society, or maybe I told myself that I needed to spend a lot of time on the volunteer capacity, on sitting on different boards and focusing on governance pieces. All very important. But for me, when I kind of took a step back, I said, you know, what are the things that are energy vampires? What are the things? I, I don’t. 

45:32
Charles
I’ve just kind of gone through the motions and I, you know, I, I enjoy it, but not really. It’s. It’s more in my head that enjoys it as opposed to my heart. So again, I was thinking that, yeah. 

45:41
Erin
That’s the ego piece we talked about. 

45:43
Charles
Exactly. The ego piece. Like I’m doing it because I’ve been told that this is the thing you need to do, you know, as part of your sort of overall brand and thinking about future opportunities, career wise, et cetera. But I’m like, it’s, it is, but I’m like, it doesn’t bring me joy. Joy. I like being much more grassroots and helping people who need help, in this case here. So focusing on education and literacy, which is a big component of my own background in history, is important to me. So I’m looking forward to spending some time doing that. 

46:13
Erin
Would you see mentoring and volunteering as separate or would you combine those? 

46:20
Charles
I would combine them, yeah. I think the mentoring piece is a different type of volunteering, but I would say that they’re all in the same bucket. Yeah. 

46:26
Erin
Okay. What about writing? Or. Yeah, your. I guess I’ll use quote, unquote work, like your purpose or whatever. Yes, I know you do a lot of writing. 

46:37
Charles
I do. You know, it’s something that I was not actively encouraged to do. Because writing doesn’t make you money. Right. And so again, my head versus heart. And so I’ve been doing a lot more writing, you know, whether it’s my blog, which I started off with as part of our trip, and I have been keeping that up and then more recently as a result of my book as well, that kind of chronicles our journey Around the World in Family Days. So I’ve enjoyed doing that and it’s been much more therapeutic, I would say, than I thought it would be. It’s. It’s kind of my way of making sense of our journey. It’s my way of being able to put all these disparate ideas in my head onto paper. So I’d say writing is an important component of what I. 

47:19
Charles
As frequent as I should do, but it’s something that brings me joy. As well. 

47:23
Erin
Do you want me to capture it as writing, or do you want to give it a label that’s a little broader to allow you to say, like, sometimes it looks like writing, but sometimes it looks like this? 

47:36
Charles
Yeah. I think that the whole literacy piece, reading and writing are very. Especially books that fill my bucket. Especially inspirational books. I’d say those kind of, that whole literacy bucket. I think the writing and the reading things that bring me joy, I’d say is one big bucket. Yeah. 

47:53
Erin
Okay. Nice. I’ll just tell you what we’ve got, and then you can tell me if anything’s missing. So we’ve got being active, being outdoors, music, kids, spouse, friends and neighbors, mentorship and volunteering, and then that literacy piece. Did we miss anything? 

48:10
Charles
I think that accurately captures it. Yeah. 

48:14
Erin
All right. Yeah, let’s put some quantities, because they’re not all the same. Right. So if we think about the context of a week and you have these little Lego blocks of time, how many blocks would you put for exercise, being active? 

48:34
Charles
I do that every day, so. 

48:36
Erin
So seven. 

48:37
Charles
Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. 

48:39
Erin
All right. Outdoors, huh? 

48:43
Charles
Not as often as I should, but actually, no. I go. I. I do a run. Your intense walk every day as well, outside. 

48:50
Erin
So that’s seven as well. 

48:52
Charles
Definitely. Yeah. 

48:55
Erin
Music. 

48:57
Charles
It’s part of my routine in the morning. Every morning. Yep. Listening to music. 

49:02
Erin
I love it. So these are all the little things that you need every day to just kind of fill your cup. 

49:10
Charles
That’s right. It’s something that I’ve realized again in the past, I would never have done, but I’ve made. I purposely have made time for it. So it’s something that’s part of my routine before the kids get up and I go about my day. 

49:23
Erin
Great. Okay. So then we’re going into kids and spouse, which I get is a little tricky because we’re with our families a lot of the time. So these. I try to think about, you know, intentional quality moments of connection. 

49:40
Charles
Oh, not as often as I should. Or at least I’ve gotten better. So my spouse and I, when she’s working from home, we go for our long walk. So I’d say probably about four or five. I’d say my kids, I would probably see the same as well. Yeah, we’ve got. We’ve really created a much more of an environment where the evenings are spent with family time, and we’ve kept the activities during the weekend. So it’s worked out for the most part that way. So I say about four or five as well. Yeah. 

50:18
Erin
Okay. Perfect. And by the way, we’re not allowed to say should on this part of the exercise. I’m just gonna point it out. You said it a couple times. That is a bad word. 

50:34
Charles
It should be. It’s good, right? Right. 

50:43
Erin
Friends and neighbors. 

50:46
Charles
Friends and neighbors. I would say that would be a three. 

50:52
Erin
Okay. 

50:53
Charles
Yeah. 

50:54
Erin
Mentorship and volunteering. 

50:57
Charles
I’d say that’s a one. Two. Yeah. 

51:02
Erin
And literacy, reading, writing. 

51:07
Charles
Every day. 

51:08
Erin
Awesome. 

51:09
Charles
Seven. Yes. 

51:10
Erin
All right, so here’s your equation, Charles. Seven, exercise, plus seven, outdoors, plus seven, music, plus five, spouse, five kids, three friends, plus two volunteering and mentorship. And seven, literacy. 

51:27
Charles
That’s great. Wow. 

51:29
Erin
I love it. 

51:30
Charles
Nice. Very good. 

51:32
Erin
Everyone’s equation is just a little bit different sometimes. They’re a lot different. 

51:37
Charles
Yes. 

51:37
Erin
Never had the same one twice. And it’s really fun to see. So thank you for doing this with me. 

51:42
Charles
No, that’s great. Good exercise. 

51:44
Erin
All right, we’re gonna do a few rapid fire. Okay, finish the sentence. Fulfillment is. 

51:51
Charles
Fulfillment is the freedom to be yourself while making an impact on things that matter to you, with people that you enjoy spending time with. Something along those things. Yeah. And with the time, with enough time to do it all, I would say amazing. Yeah. 

52:10
Erin
Give me an example of a small moment of joy you had in the last 24 hours. 

52:15
Charles
My daughter was away at a school camp program this week and just got back in last night. She left earlier in the week on the Monday and returned on Thursday. And so seeing her because she’s never been away from home for that period of time, seeing her brought joy to all of us. That was my. My moment of joy, being able to give her a big hug. When she walked in through the door. 

52:35
Erin
Yesterday, did it feel like she’d grown and matured? Because that’s. I always find that, yes. It’s like only three days, but they come back, you’re like, oh, my God. 

52:45
Charles
Exactly. And then she kind of rolls her eyes and is a bit embarrassed. I’m like, it’s just us. Come on. Yeah. She’s like, daddy, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m like, did you miss us? And she looked at me to say, really? Are you asking me that? I mean, that must mean yes. She goes, no. So I know she did. I know she did. So it’s good to have her. Her back. And that brought me and all of us joy to hear her stories of her time away this past week. Yeah. 

53:07
Erin
Amazing. What is a book you read or a podcast you listen to that changed the way you think. 

53:16
Charles
Oh, so. Laura Lynn Jackson. The book is called the Light Between Us. It’s funny, I reserved this book sometime over the course of our trip and I had thought it was a completely different book. And it ended up being this book about the psychic medium who talks to people who are on the other side, et cetera. I’m like, this is, you know, this. It’s a bit woo for me. And I read through it and after reading it, I’m like, wow, this idea or the sense that those who’ve gone before us are just on the other side and you can still. They’re still here with us, you know, they still are there. There’s a presence that’s there. It completely changed my whole. Like, I would never be open to any of this stuff. 

53:54
Charles
And it may because I was much more relaxed during the break, but it completely changed my whole thinking towards life and our ancestors who’ve gone before us and the fact that they’re all still there in some way, shape or form, rooting for us in a way and helping us and guiding us along the way. So her book talks about her experience in talking to, you know, those who’ve gone before and this idea of being able to converse with souls on the other side. Fascinating book. I really enjoyed it and it’s changed my perspective on all that. 

54:21
Erin
Amazing. In one sentence, what does freedom look like to you? 

54:26
Charles
Freedom to me would be having the autonomy to shape my days around things that are very important for me with the people that I want to spend time with. 

54:35
Erin
We talked a lot about travel on this particular episode, but travel is a theme in the fulfillment equations. So is this question in the rapid fire that I give to everybody, what is the coolest place you’ve visited or a place you visited that exceeded your expectations? 

54:51
Charles
So many. So many. You know, I have to say I’d have to say Cape Town in South Africa. That for me, just an absolutely beautiful place. The people were fantastic, the weather was great, the food was amazing. The history of South Africa overall, and even being a biracial family traveling through South Africa and just, you know, for my kids to witness that. My spouse is Caucasian, I’m black. And so, you know, for them to realize that it would have been a crime for us to have even existed in South Africa way back when. 

55:24
Charles
And so the history and the fact that the inquisitiveness of my kids then and just being able to experience the history there and seeing how much that country has changed and things that still have to change and spending time in Cape Town, beautiful city, go back in a hurt heartbeat. 

55:38
Erin
What is something you do regularly to fill your own cup? 

55:42
Charles
Reading, walking and spending time with people who are far more insightful than me, which I guess is not that difficult to do. But yeah, just engaging with mentors who can provide me with insight about their own journey, that makes me happy, that makes me content. 

56:00
Erin
Amazing. Charles, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been such a blast to hear about all of your travels, about all of the lessons you learned and that special time you had with your family. And I’m also just so glad to hear about the growth example that you’ve provided us with today. Just this movement from what may have been a fixed mindset thinking to growth mindset thinking from your head to your heart, even beginning to adopt more intuition and to the point where you’re getting a book that you didn’t even order about psychic medium and you know, open minded to the ideas that are presented in it. I think that this is just something that we’re all trying to do in terms of our own personal growth. So thank you for being an example of that today for us. 

57:00
Charles
Thank you, Aaron. It’s been a real pleasure. I enjoy reflecting and thinking about our experience over the past year and yeah, just very grateful and privileged to be able to have had that experience and to share that with your listeners. So thank you. 

57:13
Erin
Amazing. And so where can we find your book? It’s just come out this. 

57:18
Charles
That’s right. So my book Around the World in Family Days is sort of part memoir that talks about my experience and how that changed with my spouse and kids, my family, and then talks also about the power of pausing. And we’ve touched on that a little bit as well. And then this idea of how travel improves your failure immunity. So this idea that, you know, this fear of failure we have or the sting that failure has on you. And so being able to see how that change as a result of our trip too. And so excited about that coming out. It’s, it’s available on Amazon through my website, charlesachampong.com, so you can order a copy there. And excited to share our story. 

57:59
Charles
It’s got a lot of insightful experiences, action items in terms of how you can find your own pause and really create your own journey. So yeah, Around the World in Family Days, I’m looking forward to putting it out there in the universe. 

58:14
Erin
What a gift. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. I can’t wait to read it. So what’s next? 

58:20
Charles
What is next? Great question. My goal is to be able to use the book as a foundation to speak more about this idea of the power of pausing, of being able to take the sting out of failure, and the fact, again, this idea of improving your failure immunity. Those are the pieces that I want to work on. These are the things that are very of interest to me as well. And just being able to tell more of our story to people out there that want to experience either their pausing, whether it be through travel or being helpful to help them find their own pause. There’s, there’s a group that I’m now exploring some work with called the Canadian Gap Year Association. So they provide a bunch of services to students who are looking to do a gap year. 

59:03
Charles
And the organization has realized that there’s been a bit of an uptick on adults who are looking to experience a gap year. So they’ve reached out and we connected in terms of helping them put together some resources on developing what that looks like. So I’m looking forward to working on that. That as well. So that’s really interesting. Yes. 

59:22
Erin
Amazing. I can’t wait to hear more. Thank you so much, Charles. 

59:26
Charles
Thank you, Erin. Pleasure. 
59:30
Erin
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